Children taken out of School.

[oldbluefox]

If the government changes the law on this issue to make it illegal to take your child out, they should also make it illegal for teachers to strike during term time.

Que? What's the point of going on strike in holiday time? You're not a politician are you Barney?
I never understood the need for teachers to strike which only alienated the parents. It would have been just as effective if they worked to rule and eliminated any tasks outside teaching - no extra-curricula activities, no admin work except children's marking, no out of hours meetings and a strict adherence to contractual hours. The system would not cope without the goodwill of teaching staff and the extra unpaid hours.

As for taking children out of school, some children's parents are so supportive that a holiday in school time would not affect their child's education. There are others who need every minute of their time in school. Is this a case of the many suffering as a consequence of the few?

Interestingly this chap who took his case to court was saying his children always had an attendance of 93%+. That's almost one day off every fortnight. I would not say that was a good attendance, personally.

Never mind about this, would you not rather see Andre Bocelli at the King Power Stadium?

[Mervyn and Trish]

Back to the pricing issue, one could see it as price hikes in school holidays when demand is high, or discounts in term time when demand is lower!

But the bottom line is that capacity is fixed. So if school holiday times had lower prices they would sell out more quickly and then parents would moan that the holiday they wanted wasn't available.

No win I'm afraid

[Mervyn and Trish]

P.s. I didn't know the Foxes were looking for a new manager. Is Bocelli any good and does he play 5 3 2 or 4 4 2?

[david63]

In the paper at the weekend there was a report that holiday bookings in term time had gone up 30+% on the back of this case - however there was also the caveat that if the parents have got it wrong it could lead to a criminal conviction, a fine of £2.5K and a prison sentence.

This is the whole problem - it will be abused and we will be back to square one.

[Raybosailor]

We have just returned from a long break in Mallorca and the island was snided out with school kids with one family with four kids staying for three weeks, is that 4x3 fines or what ?.

My grandaughter is a dancer and has to take the odd hour at the end of the day to go for exams, she is told by the dance academy that this is allowed because it comes under performing arts and she has to take a form to the school which is always accepted. She also appears in performances at the Nottingham Theatre Royal and Royal Concert Hall and the same form has to be submitted and accepted by the school.
Imagine our dismay when she came home from school with a letter saying that her attendance was a cause for concern. She has not had a day off sick or otherwise in two years apart from these so called permitted absences and her work in school is well above average, rather confusing to say the least.

[wolfie]

I think there is a lot of sense behind the idea of staggering school holidays by region/county this would make the foreign holiday market more competitive and leave Johnny foreigner having to adjust their prices accordingly.

Same would apply to the UK holiday market.

all very well in theory, but if families have children in different schools in neighbouring authorities ( or the parents teach in etc etc) it can be a nightmare

Hi Meg.....l see were you are coming from but l think in the majority of cases children from the same families generally get educated within the same educational authority?. As for teachers etc etc... no change of system is going to suit all circumstances but there would certainly be more winners than losers if they decided to go that way...Anyhow's..... teachers are probably more able to pay the extortionate price hikes than those of low income families.

Regards

Keith

Not if you live within a few miles of a county boundary, as we do.

[oldbluefox]

The problem is education is not valued in this country compared to other countries.

[towny44]

The problem is education is not valued in this country compared to other countries.

Not valued nor appreciated by far too many families, but applying draconian rules to holidays in term time is not the way to engage with parents and improve things.
Sensible discussions between heads and parents regarding attendance records and academic attainment needed to enable a child to have some permitted time off, would be a far better and fairer way.

[oldbluefox]

I am not talking about individual instances but as a mere generalisation my view is that education is not valued as much as it should be - children taking an odd day off here and there for trivial reasons, homework not done, lack of punctuality, poor attitudes towards learning, lack of parental support, parents abdicating themselves from their childrens behaviour and progress etc.
In the past where the head's permission had to be sought for time off too many parents just took it with the attitude 'There's nothing you can do about it' and quite honestly, there wasn't. (They were usually the ones who shouted loudest when their children came home with poor reports and low standards). It seems the pendulum has swung the other way, and now back again.
I appreciate there are families who could take their children out of school and there would be no detrimental effect on their education because their children would receive 100% support throughout the term and they would be fully involved in their children in and out of school. And therein lies the dilemma.

[CaroleF]

Absolutely agree with everything Foxy says - I was a teacher too. Yes there are some children who would catch up quickly with what they had missed but others who were struggling anyway and then with holiday absence they would be even further behind. The trouble is that a rule about permission to go on holiday is a one size fits all - the school can't say "Well Child A is doing well and will easily catch up but Child B is far behind already and can't go."

I remember one occasion when a parent expected me to set work for his daughter for each day of their holiday and then mark it all on the daughter's return! I told him that no way would I do this; there was no way I could include all the work the girl was going to miss - she needed to be present when a new topic was introduced before the follow-up work could be tackled. I suggested his daughter keep a holiday diary with descriptions of places visited etc. He wasn't happy but accepted this - mind you it was presented to me to mark on the girl's return. I just made a comment at the end of the diary.

I'm not sure there's an easy answer to this problem. All I know is that my daughters were never taken out of school for a holiday when I wasn't teaching but when I went back to work full time it wasn't possible anyway - I couldn't decide to take a holiday in term time to take advantage of lower prices!

[oldbluefox]

I suggested his daughter keep a holiday diary with descriptions of places visited etc.

......................which is what I tended to suggest. Some diaries came back and were a credit to the child and their parents (which is what I knew would happen anyway) whilst others didn't bother and when asked about the 'culture' the parents said they would experience (which is the standard argument), all it amounted to was playing by the pool and eating beefburgers!!!
As Carole says there is no easy answer and no size fits all.
Setting work was a waste of time as invariably it wasn't done or it was seen as 'something to keep the kids quiet' and served no useful purpose at all.

[david63]

I wonder how much of the "we can do what we want" attitude rubs off on the children once they leave school and go on to further education and/or into the workplace.

Surely school is not all about teaching the "three r's" but teaching them "life skills" and instilling into them the values necessary to survive in "the real world"

[oldbluefox]

I think it has a profound effect David. It's not just the 'we can do what we want' brigade. It's the 'nobody's telling me what to do' attitude as well which renders them almost unemployable.
This comes in stark contrast to our Polish friends who come with a strong work ethic and a smile.

[Silver_Shiney]

One of our local schools had a sign up a few years ago:

"Respect. Learn it. Earn it"

The trouble is, today's "yoof" demand respect but do sod all to earn it. They certainly won't give it where it's due. There's no accountability, no consequences for actions. Schools used to teach that, but today's generation of teachers (the "call me Nik" brigade") have risen from the "screw you Jack, I'm alright" philosophy, so there's no hope of discipline being taught - and a lot of parents these days seem to abdicate their responsibilities in that area too.

If for no other reason, it is not right that some kids bunk off on holiday - it's not fair on the other children who can't go on holiday for whatever reason.

[Not so ancient mariner]

Even if fining parents is re-introduced, if the fine is less than the money saved by booking during term time, it will not be a deterrent.

We are lucky where we are. The Scottish schools have different holiday times to the local ones, and Glasgow Airport is no further away than Manchester, so we could fly from there when our kids were on holiday, but the Scottish schools weren't, and reap the financial benefits.

[Not so ancient mariner]

I meant to add that generally we had use a T/A over the border in order to get these prices.

[Raybosailor]

One of our local schools had a sign up a few years ago:

"Respect. Learn it. Earn it"

The trouble is, today's "yoof" demand respect but do sod all to earn it. They certainly won't give it where it's due. There's no accountability, no consequences for actions. Schools used to teach that, but today's generation of teachers (the "call me Nik" brigade") have risen from the "screw you Jack, I'm alright" philosophy, so there's no hope of discipline being taught - and a lot of parents these days seem to abdicate their responsibilities in that area too.

If for no other reason, it is not right that some kids bunk off on holiday - it's not fair on the other children who can't go on holiday for whatever reason.

Bring back the cane Alan, Me and my mate bunked off school to go to Leicester to watch Forest beat Birmingham in a second FA Cup replay at the old Filbert Street ground back in 1959. We couldn't afford the train fare so we bunked off school in the afternoon so we could bike it to Leicester in time for the kick off.
Unknown to us the BBC where showing a newsreel of fans going into the ground and me and Tom like idiots were dancing in front of the camera, next morning at assembly the headmaster invited us on stage to explain our absence but our excuse was soon discredited followed by 'six of the best' as they used to call it.
Worth it though as Forest won 5-0 and went on to win the cup.

[Silver_Shiney]

Bring back the cane Alan, Me and my mate bunked off school to go to Leicester to watch Forest beat Birmingham in a second FA Cup replay at the old Filbert Street ground back in 1959. We couldn't afford the train fare so we bunked off school in the afternoon so we could bike it to Leicester in time for the kick off.
Unknown to us the BBC where showing a newsreel of fans going into the ground and me and Tom like idiots were dancing in front of the camera, next morning at assembly the headmaster invited us on stage to explain our absence but our excuse was soon discredited followed by 'six of the best' as they used to call it.
Worth it though as Forest won 5-0 and went on to win the cup.

Funny you should say that, Ray, I was just reading in Proverbs a few minutes ago (23:13):

Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.

The room used for our French lessons was next door to the Deputy Head Master's office, and we often heard six swishes of his cane as some miscreant received his just desserts. Did it do anyone any harm? No, of course not. One of my classmates was stupid enough to be caught and punished twice for smoking under the chemistry lab (it was a prefabricated building on brick piles at the back on the school). Seeing the weals on his buttocks certainly served as a warning to the more sensible less unsensible of us not to commit the same folly. I heard of a young man, many years ago, who thought himself to be something special and untouchable. He was given a dose of the birch and swore afterwards that he would never put a foot out of place regarding the law again.

And yet the bleeding-heart, liberal left say that this is abuse. We've sown the wind, now we're reaping the whirlwind and, to mux ip my metaphors, we can't put this particular genie back in the bottle.

[Raybosailor]

I was a bit of a lad at school (nothing really serious) and was the recipient of the headmasters cane and Theodore the P.E. teachers size 13 plimsoll on several ocassions.

I even got a belt from Theodore for finishing last in cross country running because I usually finished first or second but I had trod on something sharp on the way round and it penetrated my plimsoll, he apologised later when I showed him my blood stained sock.
Some kids today are out of control but I think the discipline should start at home, as you say Alan the parents of these kids are the product of the post corporal punishment era and probably don't know what respect and discipline are.

Back on topic I think Foxy should start a travel agency for parents who want cheap holidays in term time.

[towny44]

Some kids today are out of control but I think the discipline should start at home, as you say Alan the parents of these kids are the product of the post corporal punishment era and probably don't know what respect and discipline are.

I think the deterioration started from the 70's as more and more mothers started returning to work while their children were still under school age. The reasons of course were mainly financial as inflation made it more difficult for families to maintain the lifestyle they wanted on one salary, but this led to parents being far more tolerant of bad behaviour as a compensation for their children not receiving the same attention from them.

[Silver_Shiney]

I wanted a transatlantic crossing and it was cheaper by a long way if booked in the US, so I asked my DIL (who is a TA) to do the honours. Because I had a UK address, she couldn't do it - special cheap prices for Yanks only Apparently journeys had to start and finish in the US.

A similar situation may arise for Notso should Scotland gain formal independence...

She has, however, been able to book us a B&B in St Augustine for November.

If anyone wants to book anything in the US (hotels, attractions etc) and would like to see what she can get them, I'll be happy to give her email address.


I don't think it helps discipline in schools if they allow some kids to bunk off on holiday during term-time, leaving others behind - it's not fair on the ones who can't go. Holidays should be taken during school holidays (the clue is in the name!)

[Dark Knight]

the fines should be the cost of the holiday
no exceptions for any child
3 strikes and the kid is out of school for good
and an even larger fine levied on the parents at this point ,enforced by the county bailiff

Education is a privilege and should be seen as such

[Mervyn and Trish]

I don't see why parents can't downgrade their holiday expectations for the precious few years children are at school. If they can't afford two weeks in the Caribbean during the school holiday settle for a week in a caravan at Great Yarmouth or a fortnight at Nanny's house. It was good enough for us.......

[Silver_Shiney]

the fines should be the cost of the holiday
no exceptions for any child
3 strikes and the kid is out of school for good
and an even larger fine levied on the parents at this point ,enforced by the county bailiff

Education is a privilege and should be seen as such

As low as that?

[Silver_Shiney]

I don't see why parents can't downgrade their holiday expectations for the precious few years children are at school. If they can't afford two weeks in the Caribbean during the school holiday settle for a week in a caravan at Great Yarmouth or a fortnight at Nanny's house. It was good enough for us.......

but that would be interfering with their "yuman rites"