Life After Oriana
-
Topic author - Site Admin
- Posts: 9392
- Joined: January 2012
- Location: Lancashire
Life After Oriana
Whilst it is no surprise that Oriana is leaving the fleet it has set me wondering where the future lies within P&O.
Taking Oriana out of service some nine months before Iona arrives gives the impression that P&O can absorb the 1,800 berths within the remainder of the fleet. This then begs the question as to how P&O expect to fill the 5,000 berths that come withy Iona and the additional 5,000 that come two years later with Iona's sister. We are always being told that the cruise market is growing at a fair rate of knots (forgive the pun) but is P&O in a position, or the right company, to absorb that many?
Out of interest I was looking at some figures earlier and before Oriana came into service, in 1995, P&O had around 1,700 berths and by the time that "Iona 2" comes into service in 2022 (assuming no other ships leave the fleet) there will be in the region of 26,000 berths - which equates to having to sell the best part of half a million cabins a year!
I have a gut feeling that over the next four or five years there could be some major changes with the P&O fleet and it would not surprise me if all three of the "smaller" ships were to go the same way as Oriana leaving P&O with only the "big" ships. There is, I suppose, the possibility that the smaller ships could be used to create another Carnival brand, but I would guess that that would be expensive. Another option could be to move them to Cunard.
One thing that I know is that I am going to be very wary about booking any future cruises on any of the smaller ships from now on.
Taking Oriana out of service some nine months before Iona arrives gives the impression that P&O can absorb the 1,800 berths within the remainder of the fleet. This then begs the question as to how P&O expect to fill the 5,000 berths that come withy Iona and the additional 5,000 that come two years later with Iona's sister. We are always being told that the cruise market is growing at a fair rate of knots (forgive the pun) but is P&O in a position, or the right company, to absorb that many?
Out of interest I was looking at some figures earlier and before Oriana came into service, in 1995, P&O had around 1,700 berths and by the time that "Iona 2" comes into service in 2022 (assuming no other ships leave the fleet) there will be in the region of 26,000 berths - which equates to having to sell the best part of half a million cabins a year!
I have a gut feeling that over the next four or five years there could be some major changes with the P&O fleet and it would not surprise me if all three of the "smaller" ships were to go the same way as Oriana leaving P&O with only the "big" ships. There is, I suppose, the possibility that the smaller ships could be used to create another Carnival brand, but I would guess that that would be expensive. Another option could be to move them to Cunard.
One thing that I know is that I am going to be very wary about booking any future cruises on any of the smaller ships from now on.
-
- Ex Team Member
- Posts: 13014
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Dorset
Re: Life After Oriana
All their mid sized ships will deffo move to Asia, mainly to cater for the emerging Chinese market me thinks ... stands to reason and very nice too if a cruise in and around the China Seas with wall to wall Oriental food happens to appeal.
Keep smiling, it's good for your well being
-
- Senior First Officer
- Posts: 3364
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Gower Peninsula, South Wales
Re: Life After Oriana
I think you could be right David. We are always getting emails offering bargain prices, that must mean they already have too many berths.
I am sorry for those affected by this sale, but P&O are being grossly unfair not honouring the early booking discounts and prices that those affected are losing and banging on about fluid pricing. They really are treating these passengers despicably.
I am sorry for those affected by this sale, but P&O are being grossly unfair not honouring the early booking discounts and prices that those affected are losing and banging on about fluid pricing. They really are treating these passengers despicably.
Gill
-
- Senior First Officer
- Posts: 2266
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: sarf London
Re: Life After Oriana
they are shooting themselves in the foot - the huge ships can only do huge ports and there's only so many times the passengers are going to want to go to Lisbon etc
Meg
x
x
-
- Deputy Captain
- Posts: 5607
- Joined: March 2013
- Location: Instow Devon
Re: Life After Oriana
I think that they are targeting a slightly different demographic. The family market is where the real growth is. The regular cruiser (like most of us) is a diminishing market. Floating resorts seems to be the model of all of the big players. Smaller niche cruises will be left to the smaller niche cruise lines. That is my opinion.
Empty vessels .. and all that
-
- Senior Second Officer
- Posts: 666
- Joined: February 2013
- Location: North East
Re: Life After Oriana
Not sure that is correct in fact I think it is a myth. Ou have to go down to Adonia size to get into “small” ports. Britannia or Ventura can get into anywhere Oriana can apart from Venice.
It is not the problem it is perceived.
-
- Captain
- Posts: 11273
- Joined: January 2013
Re: Life After Oriana
It seems to me that things started taking a turn for the worst when they replaced Carol Marlow?
I think P&O have turned their backs on traditional cruising which, if l am right, could prove to be a big mistake. They are probably taking the attatude that once the smaller traditional ships are gone traditional cruisers will switch to their high capacity lower standard ships.......l'n not so sure this will be the case?
I think P&O have turned their backs on traditional cruising which, if l am right, could prove to be a big mistake. They are probably taking the attatude that once the smaller traditional ships are gone traditional cruisers will switch to their high capacity lower standard ships.......l'n not so sure this will be the case?
-
- First Officer
- Posts: 1832
- Joined: February 2013
- Location: Gower, Swansea
Re: Life After Oriana
It won't be in my case. Once Aurora and Arcadia go so will I.
Currently I am a Baltic tier member with P and O but will be looking to other cruise lines that suit my type of cruising on traditional cruise ships.
Lindsey
Currently I am a Baltic tier member with P and O but will be looking to other cruise lines that suit my type of cruising on traditional cruise ships.
Lindsey
-
- Ex Team Member
- Posts: 11305
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Cumbria
Re: Life After Oriana
You and plenty of others, Lindsey. The problem with this policy is that young cruisers of today will be the older traditional cruisers of tomorrow. Like others I will just transfer my allegiance to a cruise line which suits my style of cruising.
-
- First Officer
- Posts: 1832
- Joined: February 2013
- Location: Gower, Swansea
Re: Life After Oriana
When we were on Oriana last March I can't tell you how many people we came across who were concerned as to the lowering of standards by P and O and were going to be trying out different cruise lines. This will just make their minds up for them.
Still P and O must think that there is a huge market on there for the younger cruisers, and judging by the Facebook groups there is.
Well am off on Aurora in October to Greece and this has to be paid for in the next few weeks, will enjoy it. Have two more booked for next year on Oriana and Arcadia but won't be booking any more but will be investigating other cruise lines.
Lindsey
Still P and O must think that there is a huge market on there for the younger cruisers, and judging by the Facebook groups there is.
Well am off on Aurora in October to Greece and this has to be paid for in the next few weeks, will enjoy it. Have two more booked for next year on Oriana and Arcadia but won't be booking any more but will be investigating other cruise lines.
Lindsey
-
- Commodore
- Posts: 15262
- Joined: February 2013
Re: Life After Oriana
The simple fact is that P&O fill more cruise berths out of the UK than anyone else. In fact more than some of the other lines put together. So they must be doing something right.
And today's young cruisers won't turn into tomorrow's traditional cruisers because they've never experienced it. They want a different sort of cruise holiday. In 30 years time they'll be viewing the latest ships and saying "it's not like Iona".
Had P&O remained independent things might have been different. But they didn't and with three Carnival brands now operating out of the UK it would make no sense for them all to be chasing the same market. So it may well be they've decided to make P&O the bargain basement with Princess and Cunard successively more expensive.
Equally it is right that if some of us no longer like the product we change lines. Simple market forces. But P&O won't go bust tomorrow because we do.
And today's young cruisers won't turn into tomorrow's traditional cruisers because they've never experienced it. They want a different sort of cruise holiday. In 30 years time they'll be viewing the latest ships and saying "it's not like Iona".
Had P&O remained independent things might have been different. But they didn't and with three Carnival brands now operating out of the UK it would make no sense for them all to be chasing the same market. So it may well be they've decided to make P&O the bargain basement with Princess and Cunard successively more expensive.
Equally it is right that if some of us no longer like the product we change lines. Simple market forces. But P&O won't go bust tomorrow because we do.
-
Topic author - Site Admin
- Posts: 9392
- Joined: January 2012
- Location: Lancashire
Re: Life After Oriana
Conspiracy theory time.
Oriana has been sold, allegedly, to a Chinese company. Now all the reports are saying that China is the biggest cruise growth market so it would make sense that Carnival, along with RCI, Celebrity et al, would want a piece of the action.
The Chinese company that has "bought" Oriana may be a company set up, or backed, by Carnival and at some point in the not too distant future will be merged into Carnival Corp. I know not the legalities of setting up a company in China which is possibly why Oriana is going sooner than might have been expected. Once the company is set up and it has its supply chain in place then it will be in a position to expand.
Apart from the Chinese market there is also the fact that the Chinese are notorious for being aggressive business men and it would not be long before they would be trying to encroach on the UK/Europe cruise market. If it is part of Carnival then they would be able to control it. Also it would replace P&O Australia as the "dumping ground" for old ships.
The is also a possibility that, as Moby suggested, there could be UK style cruises out of China to some new destinations.
Just a theory - but time will tell.
Oriana has been sold, allegedly, to a Chinese company. Now all the reports are saying that China is the biggest cruise growth market so it would make sense that Carnival, along with RCI, Celebrity et al, would want a piece of the action.
The Chinese company that has "bought" Oriana may be a company set up, or backed, by Carnival and at some point in the not too distant future will be merged into Carnival Corp. I know not the legalities of setting up a company in China which is possibly why Oriana is going sooner than might have been expected. Once the company is set up and it has its supply chain in place then it will be in a position to expand.
Apart from the Chinese market there is also the fact that the Chinese are notorious for being aggressive business men and it would not be long before they would be trying to encroach on the UK/Europe cruise market. If it is part of Carnival then they would be able to control it. Also it would replace P&O Australia as the "dumping ground" for old ships.
The is also a possibility that, as Moby suggested, there could be UK style cruises out of China to some new destinations.
Just a theory - but time will tell.
-
- Second Officer
- Posts: 236
- Joined: June 2016
Re: Life After Oriana
I’d agree with thisMervyn and Trish wrote: ↑01 Jul 2018, 09:43The simple fact is that P&O fill more cruise berths out of the UK than anyone else. In fact more than some of the other lines put together. So they must be doing something right.
And today's young cruisers won't turn into tomorrow's traditional cruisers because they've never experienced it. They want a different sort of cruise holiday. In 30 years time they'll be viewing the latest ships and saying "it's not like Iona".
Had P&O remained independent things might have been different. But they didn't and with three Carnival brands now operating out of the UK it would make no sense for them all to be chasing the same market. So it may well be they've decided to make P&O the bargain basement with Princess and Cunard successively more expensive.
Equally it is right that if some of us no longer like the product we change lines. Simple market forces. But P&O won't go bust tomorrow because we do.
I’d also point out that cruising is much cheaper now than when we, relative newcomers, started in autumn 2010. So perhaps it’s not unreasonable to think of looking at the more expensive lines, to find the service levels etc from way back then?
Ex-UK cruises in the ‘off season’ might be something of a problem though
-
- Senior First Officer
- Posts: 3364
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Gower Peninsula, South Wales
Re: Life After Oriana
So much cheaper I agree. Standard outside cabins, which is what we started with 20+ years ago, because balconies were only in suites, cost more then than balconies do these days. It’s great more people are able to cruise, but at todays prices, something has to give.
Gill
-
- Senior Second Officer
- Posts: 666
- Joined: February 2013
- Location: North East
Re: Life After Oriana
Our first cruise on Aurora in 2001 was £190.00 pppn. That was for a balcony on A deck.GillD46 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2018, 11:43So much cheaper I agree. Standard outside cabins, which is what we started with 20+ years ago, because balconies were only in suites, cost more then than balconies do these days. It’s great more people are able to cruise, but at todays prices, something has to give.
We now sail in suites which are often much less than that and at the most £10.00 pppn more.
Interestingly many oaks on forums are that the prices are so high. Of course we book at the optimal time and get the best deal.
-
- Senior First Officer
- Posts: 4897
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Kent
Re: Life After Oriana
Perhaps the point raised should be 'WILL the larger ships go to the small ports'. I think the answer is probably 'no'.
I've based this on observations regarding the interesting P & O itinerary that includes some Greek Islands.
In 2017 Ventura had 4 seventeen night cruises doing this itinerary and there was one on Azura too.
By 2018 this had dwindled to one on Ventura and none on Azura.
For 2019, there's just the one cruise on the larger ships on this itinerary, on Azura, and it's been extended to 19 nights.
It seems to me that the mid sized ships tend to do the longer Med cruises with ports that are a bit different.
I believe that the mid sized ships are on their way out of the P&O fleet, and we'll be left with 7 and 14 night cruises with bog standard ports on the bigger ships.
The Greek Island itinerary is one I have wanted to do for some time, and I've booked the 19 night cruise on Azura. A cruise of this length on Azura is as rare as a hen's tooth these days
Gill
-
- Senior First Officer
- Posts: 4897
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Kent
Re: Life After Oriana
As a coincidence, our first cruise was Aurora in 2001 in a balcony cabin on A deck. It cost us about £5000 as a couple for 14 nights, so, yes, about £190pppn.daib GC wrote: ↑01 Jul 2018, 13:05Our first cruise on Aurora in 2001 was £190.00 pppn. That was for a balcony on A deck.GillD46 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2018, 11:43So much cheaper I agree. Standard outside cabins, which is what we started with 20+ years ago, because balconies were only in suites, cost more then than balconies do these days. It’s great more people are able to cruise, but at todays prices, something has to give.
We now sail in suites which are often much less than that and at the most £10.00 pppn more.
Interestingly many oaks on forums are that the prices are so high. Of course we book at the optimal time and get the best deal.
The cruise we've booked on Azura next year is costing us a shade under £5000 for 19 nights in a balcony cabin, so its about £130 pppn. However, we booked this last September on opening day, so 2 years in advance.
Out of curiosity, I checked what the price of the holiday would be if booked today, and I was stunned to find that the price had gone up by £3300.
I think the price can still seem low for those of us who can book ridiculously early, but for someone booking today, they will think the price has gone up a lot since 2001.
Gill
-
Topic author - Site Admin
- Posts: 9392
- Joined: January 2012
- Location: Lancashire
Re: Life After Oriana
An interesting article here about Carnival and China. It also uses the phrase "a domestic cruise line" which is the same as that used in the sale of Oriana.
-
- Senior First Officer
- Posts: 2851
- Joined: March 2013
- Location: Lancashire
-
- Deputy Captain
- Posts: 5607
- Joined: March 2013
- Location: Instow Devon
Re: Life After Oriana
The simple fact is that cruising used to be the domain of the rich, or for that very special one off holiday.
Most on here cruise at least annually and many have a few a year.
The cost has fallen to put it in reach of a family holiday and that is the market that they are all competing for.
Ships like the good old Oriana don't fall into the family category so they have to go.
I'd reckon that within ten years, all of the current mid size ships will be gone and Ventura and Azura will be the smallest.
Britannia will be considered Mid Size.
Most on here cruise at least annually and many have a few a year.
The cost has fallen to put it in reach of a family holiday and that is the market that they are all competing for.
Ships like the good old Oriana don't fall into the family category so they have to go.
I'd reckon that within ten years, all of the current mid size ships will be gone and Ventura and Azura will be the smallest.
Britannia will be considered Mid Size.
Empty vessels .. and all that
-
- Senior First Officer
- Posts: 3364
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Gower Peninsula, South Wales
Re: Life After Oriana
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you are right, we don't often cruise P&O, but even with Cunard, their ships wouldn’t be considered big, though the new one is getting bigger.
Gill
-
- Commodore
- Posts: 15262
- Joined: February 2013
Re: Life After Oriana
The age of the remaining mid sized ships alone would suggest you're right. By then both Oceana and Aurora will be as old as Oriana is now, though they are more modern technology. Only Arcadia is a comparative youngster and also a little bigger.
-
- Commodore
- Posts: 15925
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Down Souf. The civilised end of the country :)
Re: Life After Oriana
We like Aurora, not keen on Arcadia.
-
- Ex Team Member
- Posts: 11305
- Joined: January 2013
- Location: Cumbria
Re: Life After Oriana
We prefer the medium sized ships (Arcadia and Aurora) but not fazed by bigger ships if they have a sense of class, elegance and good facilities. Much depends on the style and facilities onboard.
As an example we were surprised to find no dedicated cinema on Azura and ended up peering around a curtain behind a pillar in one of the bars with Joe Public passing by behind us. One reason Azura is not for us. Not impressed with Ventura either but I know some people love them.
As an example we were surprised to find no dedicated cinema on Azura and ended up peering around a curtain behind a pillar in one of the bars with Joe Public passing by behind us. One reason Azura is not for us. Not impressed with Ventura either but I know some people love them.