Auto Tipping is Rearing its Head Again

[Whynd1]

If you prepay the service charge and then you have to cancel, will they refund these charges.

[david63]

have to get a wodge of money out of the ATM

No need - you can get cash against your account from reception

[Gill W]

If you prepay the service charge and then you have to cancel, will they refund these charges.

Just checked CMV's T&C. If you cancel the Additions package less than 90 days before departure there's a £25 admin fee. But apart from that, yes they will refund

have to get a wodge of money out of the ATM

No need - you can get cash against your account from reception

I'd have to get the money from somewhere, and I have to be honest in saying that I'd rather not bother. 99% of my spending these days is done by cards, even small amounts. We recently got Halifax Clarity cards for our expenditure while overseas. For me, reverting to cash would be a backwards step

[Whynd1]

I have been a recent convert to paying small amounts by debit card. It's great just swipe the card pad and its done.
I got carried away st the petrol station only to be told I couldn't swipe as it was over 30 pounds.

[towny44]

There was a recent thread on CC, now pulled, from someone who claimed to work for P&O giving a run down on their current payment system.
From memory basic pay for a new waiter was £652pm, plus a £200pm good conduct bonus, £50pm witheld until the end of the contract,plus the CSQ bonus, customer service questionnaire, of £300pm.
The poster gave this further info, the basic pay was guaranteed, the good conduct bonus depended on no black marks from supervisors or criticism passed on from passengers, the CSQ, as we knew, depends on the end of cruise questionnaire score, if everyone gave only good then no bonus would be paid, similarly to receive the full bonus you only need a few not giving excellent to reduce the level. There was quite a bit of detail about how the CSQ bonus was calculated, which comprises a personal and group element, but without the original post the data is lost.
He/she also said that over the period the auto tip has increased from £3.10 to £7pd, 225%, they have received only 5-7% increase in pay, he also confirmed that cash tips are theirs to keep, although they do tend to share some with the lower rank galley staff.
However he also said that currently any shortfalls in the auto tip are made up by P&O, but of course if you do the maths its easy to see that P&O are not paying anywhere near the amount needed to fund even both bonuses, from the likely receipts of the current £7pd.

[Janet-]

You can read the post to which Towny refers here https://www.cruise.co.uk/forum/509-grat ... pping.html

[david63]

I saw that topic yesterday (I suspect some pressure was put on CC, possibly by P&O, to remove it).

Whilst there were a few bits that were of interest the majority of it was about the CSQ which, quite frankly, is of no interest and was somewhat along the "begging" line to give excellent all the time. How P&O, or any other company, allocates bonuses is up to them and if I am not mistaken the CSQ bonus is out of P&O's pocket and nothing to do with "auto tips" - well that was what was once stated.

The problem with using questionnaires is that the concept is basically flawed because they do not take into account the psychology that is associated with them. There are some people who will never give the top mark because they do not think that they should. There are other who will tick all top marks because they do not want to upset anyone. Any questionnaire process has to be looked at and a "gut feel" decision make on what has been put on them. When I was working I spent a lot of time analysing questionnaires so I am well aware of the problems.

The bottom line is that apart from a few senior managers in P&O and their auditors nobody really knows the full story - and never will and whatever we all think this whole sorry story is driven by the "bean counters" across the pond!

[Janet-]

David, you may wish to read post 39 https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/showt ... 985&page=2
P&O are confirming the money from auto tips is given to the crew based on CSQs.
I do notice that P&O have again changed the wording in FAQ about tips.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Interesting numbers if accurate. That means that a well behaved new waiter, assuming they have to deal with 5 tables of 6, each paying £7 tips per day (and assuming they get as little as a tenth of the pot) working 9 months of the year and getting nothing for the other 3, will be getting more than £16,000 per year. Around the minimum wage in UK terms, very good in Indian terms. And of course they get free bed and board while they're on the ship. So maybe the low pay argument is now a myth.

But doesn't alter for me the thought that the tips system is broken, with so many new cruisers simply refusing to pay, meaning that the level keeps going up for the rest of us as P&O protect their pocket. And if P&O top up to cover non-payers it means that the payers are coughing up twice, once for our own tips and again through increased fares to cover the non-payers. Needs to change.

[daib GC]

I saw that topic yesterday (I suspect some pressure was put on CC, possibly by P&O, to remove it).

Whilst there were a few bits that were of interest the majority of it was about the CSQ which, quite frankly, is of no interest and was somewhat along the "begging" line to give excellent all the time. How P&O, or any other company, allocates bonuses is up to them and if I am not mistaken the CSQ bonus is out of P&O's pocket and nothing to do with "auto tips" - well that was what was once stated.

The problem with using questionnaires is that the concept is basically flawed because they do not take into account the psychology that is associated with them. There are some people who will never give the top mark because they do not think that they should. There are other who will tick all top marks because they do not want to upset anyone. Any questionnaire process has to be looked at and a "gut feel" decision make on what has been put on them. When I was working I spent a lot of time analysing questionnaires so I am well aware of the problems.

The bottom line is that apart from a few senior managers in P&O and their auditors nobody really knows the full story - and never will and whatever we all think this whole sorry story is driven by the "bean counters" across the pond!

Picked a good day to be away from my iPad, I did not see the original but I have had a glance of the link. I suspect that it was pulled by CC because they don’t allow discussion of he financial details of any company. Possibly there American roots coming out. CC’s roots that is. I am glad that John said the poster claimed to be a crew member. It seems far too convenient that here had been a very long thread on tipping which was grinding to a halt and suddenly a post appear from a “crew member” appears. I think given the time and inclination I could have come up with a similar document

[Manoverboard]

How they earn their money is of little interest to me ... in any event I will continue with the ' autotips ' and genuinely hope that the hard working crew of whichever Line earn enough to fund their retirement years.

[Kendhni]

... the CSQ, as we knew, depends on the end of cruise questionnaire score, if everyone gave only good then no bonus would be paid, similarly to receive the full bonus you only need a few not giving excellent to reduce the level.

This snippet would concern me a bit.
Are the cruise lines interested in honest feedback whereby they actually can realistically monitor and improve their service or do they just want people ticking the excellent box so that they can wave numbers around in their shareholder meeting?

As someone responsible for quite a few people's appraisals and annual reviews, the default mark for someone doing their job well and meeting expectations is 3 out of 5. People who consistently go the extra mile might get a 4 and it is almost impossible to get a 5 (unless you know how ) . I have always treated the cruise feedback form in a similar manner, although 'Good' would be my normal response for someone who has met my expectations - the steward or waiter has to have excelled to get 'excellent' ... and there have been quite a few who have gone the extra mile and deserved it.

If what has been said is true, then it could be that my 'good' has actually stopped a steward or waiter getting part/all of their tips - I would expect them to be given the significant majority of them.

[Janet-]

Interesting numbers if accurate. That means that a well behaved new waiter, assuming they have to deal with 5 tables of 6, each paying £7 tips per day (and assuming they get as little as a tenth of the pot) working 9 months of the year and getting nothing for the other 3, will be getting more than £16,000 per year. Around the minimum wage in UK terms, very good in Indian terms. And of course they get free bed and board while they're on the ship. So maybe the low pay argument is now a myth.

But doesn't alter for me the thought that the tips system is broken, with so many new cruisers simply refusing to pay, meaning that the level keeps going up for the rest of us as P&O protect their pocket. And if P&O top up to cover non-payers it means that the payers are coughing up twice, once for our own tips and again through increased fares to cover the non-payers. Needs to change.

Sorry I can't quite follow this.
A new waiter gets £692 + £200 (good conduct bonus) + £300 (CSQ bonus) = £1192 x 9 months = £10728. Your £7 auto tips per day has been used to fund the bonuses. The only way he would get more would be from any cash tips.

[daib GC]

... the CSQ, as we knew, depends on the end of cruise questionnaire score, if everyone gave only good then no bonus would be paid, similarly to receive the full bonus you only need a few not giving excellent to reduce the level.

This snippet would concern me a bit.
Are the cruise lines interested in honest feedback whereby they actually can realistically monitor and improve their service or do they just want people ticking the excellent box so that they can wave numbers around in their shareholder meeting?

As someone responsible for quite a few people's appraisals and annual reviews, the default mark for someone doing their job well and meeting expectations is 3 out of 5. People who consistently go the extra mile might get a 4 and it is almost impossible to get a 5 (unless you know how ) . I have always treated the cruise feedback form in a similar manner, although 'Good' would be my normal response for someone who has met my expectations - the steward or waiter has to have excelled to get 'excellent' ... and there have been quite a few who have gone the extra mile and deserved it.

If what has been said is true, then it could be that my 'good' has actually stopped a steward or waiter getting part/all of their tips - I would expect them to be given the significant majority of them.

This has been the case for a number of years now. On more than on occasion the captain has asked people to give excellent if they thought the service was good. To help the staff they need to be given excellent

[david63]

It matters not one bit how P&O, Tesco, Marks & Spencer or any other company pay their staff nor which "pot" that money comes from, that is a matter between employer and employee and if putting the honest truth on a questionnaire affects an emplyee's pay then it is up to the employee to remedy the situation (providing they are informed of their failings)

Where I, along with many others, do have a problem is with, in this case, P&O continually increasing the "optional" automatically added service charge for whatever reasons they have. The bottom line is that at the end of the day we, the passenger, will have to pay the wage bill one way or another, either directly as tips/service charge or indirectly in the cost of the cruise and at the moment the system is both broken and not fit for purpose.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Interesting numbers if accurate. That means that a well behaved new waiter, assuming they have to deal with 5 tables of 6, each paying £7 tips per day (and assuming they get as little as a tenth of the pot) working 9 months of the year and getting nothing for the other 3, will be getting more than £16,000 per year. Around the minimum wage in UK terms, very good in Indian terms. And of course they get free bed and board while they're on the ship. So maybe the low pay argument is now a myth.

But doesn't alter for me the thought that the tips system is broken, with so many new cruisers simply refusing to pay, meaning that the level keeps going up for the rest of us as P&O protect their pocket. And if P&O top up to cover non-payers it means that the payers are coughing up twice, once for our own tips and again through increased fares to cover the non-payers. Needs to change.

Sorry I can't quite follow this.
A new waiter gets £692 + £200 (good conduct bonus) + £300 (CSQ bonus) = £1192 x 9 months = £10728. Your £7 auto tips per day has been used to fund the bonuses. The only way he would get more would be from any cash tips.

As I understand it P&O are claiming they fund the bonuses based on our satisfaction surveys, not us, and that tips are separate. If they are lying or I have misunderstood then you are correct.

In that case, however, I will definitely stop the auto tips. If I give a tip because I thought the service merited it I would be very angry if it was witheld because someone else disagreed.

The smoke and mirrors is one big reason I think the system is broken and needs to be scrapped. Build the entire cost of the salary structure into the fare so we all pay and then I really don't care how they operate their bonus schemes.

[Meg 50]

People who consistently go the extra mile might get a 4 and it is almost impossible to get a 5 (unless you know how

for us to give excellent - the steward or whoever has to be mind-blowingly good - and we just about never award that on any questionnare - cos no one in this world is perfect.

I hope it's not only 5/5 that gets the bonus

[daib GC]

People who consistently go the extra mile might get a 4 and it is almost impossible to get a 5 (unless you know how

for us to give excellent - the steward or whoever has to be mind-blowingly good - and we just about never award that on any questionnare - cos no one in this world is perfect.

I hope it's not only 5/5 that gets the bonus

I am afraid it is. It is a poor system. As I said above I have heard a number of captains asking people to give excellent on their questionnaire.

[towny44]

People who consistently go the extra mile might get a 4 and it is almost impossible to get a 5 (unless you know how

for us to give excellent - the steward or whoever has to be mind-blowingly good - and we just about never award that on any questionnare - cos no one in this world is perfect.

I hope it's not only 5/5 that gets the bonus

I am afraid it is. It is a poor system. As I said above I have heard a number of captains asking people to give excellent on their questionnaire.

That's why I will be removing the auto grats on our next P&O cruise and tipping in cash.

[daib GC]

People who consistently go the extra mile might get a 4 and it is almost impossible to get a 5 (unless you know how

for us to give excellent - the steward or whoever has to be mind-blowingly good - and we just about never award that on any questionnare - cos no one in this world is perfect.

I hope it's not only 5/5 that gets the bonus

I am afraid it is. It is a poor system. As I said above I have heard a number of captains asking people to give excellent on their questionnaire.

That's why I will be removing the auto grats on our next P&O cruise and tipping in cash.

So you have just realised this John. It has been known about for at least 6 years or more.

[Ray Scully]

I have to confess that I am beginning to question the need for tipping since I now suspect that all it does is reduce the amount that P&O have to put
Therefore my view now is that those who continue to pay the auto tip will be asked for regular rises as the numbers who remove the tips altogether increase. So until P&O include tips in their cruise fares I am very tempted to join the non payers.

John

Having cruised for 20+ years and always paid at least the recommended tip, we are now considering opting out, exactly for the reason that we are not prepared to compensate for those who find the tipping system a challenge. Interestingly however chatting with some folk on a recent cruise who thought the tipping "charge" was exorbitant and said as their on board account was already over £1800 P&O have done well enough out of them.

Ray

[towny44]

for us to give excellent - the steward or whoever has to be mind-blowingly good - and we just about never award that on any questionnare - cos no one in this world is perfect.

I hope it's not only 5/5 that gets the bonus

I am afraid it is. It is a poor system. As I said above I have heard a number of captains asking people to give excellent on their questionnaire.

That's why I will be removing the auto grats on our next P&O cruise and tipping in cash.

So you have just realised this John. It has been known about for at least 6 years or more.

I do not doubt you're correct about how long P&O have been perpetrating this charade, but I do wonder why you still want to continue paying this false pretence auto tip if you have known about it for so long?

[daib GC]

I am afraid it is. It is a poor system. As I said above I have heard a number of captains asking people to give excellent on their questionnaire.

That's why I will be removing the auto grats on our next P&O cruise and tipping in cash.

So you have just realised this John. It has been known about for at least 6 years or more.

I do not doubt you're correct about how long P&O have been perpetrating this charade, but I do wonder why you still want to continue paying this false pretence auto tip if you have known about it for so long?

You are mistaken it is only the link to the questionnaire. And I will still be paying my auto tip. I still have seen nothing to change my mind. I am still very happy to do what I do.

[towny44]

That's why I will be removing the auto grats on our next P&O cruise and tipping in cash.

So you have just realised this John. It has been known about for at least 6 years or more.

I do not doubt you're correct about how long P&O have been perpetrating this charade, but I do wonder why you still want to continue paying this false pretence auto tip if you have known about it for so long?

You are mistaken it is only the link to the questionnaire. And I will still be paying my auto tip. I still have seen nothing to change my mind. I am still very happy to do what I do.

Do be careful how deep you dig in that hole Dai, we would not want the sides falling in on you!

[daib GC]

So you have just realised this John. It has been known about for at least 6 years or more.

I do not doubt you're correct about how long P&O have been perpetrating this charade, but I do wonder why you still want to continue paying this false pretence auto tip if you have known about it for so long?

You are mistaken it is only the link to the questionnaire. And I will still be paying my auto tip. I still have seen nothing to change my mind. I am still very happy to do what I do.

Do be careful how deep you dig in that hole Dai, we would not want the sides falling in on you!

I am still interested how you still beleave that the post from CC was in anyway genuine as it came along at a very appropriate time and from a first time poster. Glad to say that where it has been posted elsewhere it has been greeted with a large degree of scepticism. And I had not even posted anything.