Brexit

[oldbluefox]

Far too early for gloating Gill …. Oh, yes you were …. kindly note that this is a DRAFT document.

The Euro negotiators will note the resignations and that Labour haven't got the balls to support our PM. They will therefore make adjustments as a no deal is the worst scenario for them.

Remember that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

This proposal will be gone through in fine detail both here and sur la continent, it will bounce back n forth until we get what we want, otherwise we leave without a deal …. seemples.

No I'm not gloating, I was wondering why everybody was so quiet.

To be honest I'm still wondering, as none of the usual suspects seem willing to give any real opinion.

You seem to get upset when we do.

Opinion is fine - however, the tone and language in which it is delivered is not always fine

You mean as in your references to Jolly Boys and the usual suspects? I think what you are saying has to work both ways.

[Gill W]

I listened to TM ……… .

The question is, are you and 'the people' willing to risk ceding control to Brussels to achieve the things you have listed?

As I understand it, if an adequate solution to the Irish border isn't reached by December 2020, the UK wide customs area will kick in as the backstop until some indefinite date in the future when it is mutually agreed the backstop can end. This could potentially be years.

As a key Brexiter aim was to 'take back control', we would have less control and no seat at the table to influence our destiny.

We'd be worse off than we are now, with no ability to make our own trade deals, which, I understand, is another key Brexity aim.

Deep down, would you really, truly be okay with us in this subordinate position.

As I said earlier this is a DRAFT version and I do expect to see the thorny bits dropped in due course to reflect ' The Peoples ' concerns.

The Backstop position was written as is, I would venture to suggest, at the behest of the EU negotiators to focus our minds but they will have observed how badly it was received and that we are even prepared to axe our PM to demonstrate our collective dismissal of this proposal.

Would they rather negotiate with Boris I wonder ?

They might have to at this rate!

[Stephen]

I listened to TM ……… .

The question is, are you and 'the people' willing to risk ceding control to Brussels to achieve the things you have listed?

As I understand it, if an adequate solution to the Irish border isn't reached by December 2020, the UK wide customs area will kick in as the backstop until some indefinite date in the future when it is mutually agreed the backstop can end. This could potentially be years.

As a key Brexiter aim was to 'take back control', we would have less control and no seat at the table to influence our destiny.

We'd be worse off than we are now, with no ability to make our own trade deals, which, I understand, is another key Brexity aim.

Deep down, would you really, truly be okay with us in this subordinate position.

As I said earlier this is a DRAFT version and I do expect to see the thorny bits dropped in due course to reflect ' The Peoples ' concerns.

The Backstop position was written as is, I would venture to suggest, at the behest of the EU negotiators to focus our minds but they will have observed how badly it was received and that we are even prepared to axe our PM to demonstrate our collective dismissal of this proposal.

Would they rather negotiate with Boris I wonder ?

The EU have other ideas. And I quote

_________________________________________________

Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened - EU official

Adam Fleming

Brussels reporter


A (very) senior EU official has suggested that the draft Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened, either by Westminster or the member states, saying: "We think we've exhausted our margin for manoeuvre."

"People who want changes will also have to take responsibility for the effect on the process."
______________________________________________________________

[Gill W]

No I'm not gloating, I was wondering why everybody was so quiet.

To be honest I'm still wondering, as none of the usual suspects seem willing to give any real opinion.

You seem to get upset when we do.

Opinion is fine - however, the tone and language in which it is delivered is not always fine

You mean as in your references to Jolly Boys and the usual suspects? I think what you are saying has to work both ways.

If you are saying that it doesn't feel very nice to be described like that, try being on the end of the barrage that the majority on this forum direct towards the minority.

Yes, it does work both ways. We ALL need to remember that

[Stephen]

Larry the Cat‏
@Number10cat


“The Prime Minister offered me the position of Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. After careful consideration for three seconds, I have declined the offer”

DsCeuAhWwAcRRWm.jpg

[Gill W]

I listened to TM ……… .

The question is, are you and 'the people' willing to risk ceding control to Brussels to achieve the things you have listed?

As I understand it, if an adequate solution to the Irish border isn't reached by December 2020, the UK wide customs area will kick in as the backstop until some indefinite date in the future when it is mutually agreed the backstop can end. This could potentially be years.

As a key Brexiter aim was to 'take back control', we would have less control and no seat at the table to influence our destiny.

We'd be worse off than we are now, with no ability to make our own trade deals, which, I understand, is another key Brexity aim.

Deep down, would you really, truly be okay with us in this subordinate position.

As I said earlier this is a DRAFT version and I do expect to see the thorny bits dropped in due course to reflect ' The Peoples ' concerns.

The Backstop position was written as is, I would venture to suggest, at the behest of the EU negotiators to focus our minds but they will have observed how badly it was received and that we are even prepared to axe our PM to demonstrate our collective dismissal of this proposal.

Would they rather negotiate with Boris I wonder ?

The EU have other ideas. And I quote

_________________________________________________

Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened - EU official

Adam Fleming

Brussels reporter


A (very) senior EU official has suggested that the draft Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened, either by Westminster or the member states, saying: "We think we've exhausted our margin for manoeuvre."

"People who want changes will also have to take responsibility for the effect on the process."
______________________________________________________________

'We're doomed, I tell you, doomed'. Private James Frazer

[Gill W]

Larry the Cat‏
@Number10cat


“The Prime Minister offered me the position of Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. After careful consideration for three seconds, I have declined the offer”



DsCeuAhWwAcRRWm.jpg

Larry is a very sensible cat

[Onelife]

I listened to TM ……… .

The question is, are you and 'the people' willing to risk ceding control to Brussels to achieve the things you have listed?

As I understand it, if an adequate solution to the Irish border isn't reached by December 2020, the UK wide customs area will kick in as the backstop until some indefinite date in the future when it is mutually agreed the backstop can end. This could potentially be years.

As a key Brexiter aim was to 'take back control', we would have less control and no seat at the table to influence our destiny.

We'd be worse off than we are now, with no ability to make our own trade deals, which, I understand, is another key Brexity aim.

Deep down, would you really, truly be okay with us in this subordinate position.

As I said earlier this is a DRAFT version and I do expect to see the thorny bits dropped in due course to reflect ' The Peoples ' concerns.

The Backstop position was written as is, I would venture to suggest, at the behest of the EU negotiators to focus our minds but they will have observed how badly it was received and that we are even prepared to axe our PM to demonstrate our collective dismissal of this proposal.

Would they rather negotiate with Boris I wonder ?

The EU have other ideas. And I quote

_________________________________________________

Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened - EU official

Adam Fleming

Brussels reporter


A (very) senior EU official has suggested that the draft Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened, either by Westminster or the member states, saying: "We think we've exhausted our margin for manoeuvre."

"People who want changes will also have to take responsibility for the effect on the process."
______________________________________________________________

"Has suggested" and "We think" sound a little ambiguous to me Stephen

[oldbluefox]

If you are saying that it doesn't feel very nice to be described like that, try being on the end of the barrage that the majority on this forum direct towards the minority.

Yes, it does work both ways. We ALL need to remember that

No Gill I am not saying that at all. Why so aggressive? It doesn't bother me at all what people call me but if we are to keep debate as you say you would like it it helps if little digs at those with a different view are kept out of it. Your references to Jolly Boys and 'the usual suspects' were to my mind needlessly provocative. Since your complaint and that of GP I feel restraint has been shown on both sides. All I am asking is let's keep it that way.

[Stephen]

The question is, are you and 'the people' willing to risk ceding control to Brussels to achieve the things you have listed?

As I understand it, if an adequate solution to the Irish border isn't reached by December 2020, the UK wide customs area will kick in as the backstop until some indefinite date in the future when it is mutually agreed the backstop can end. This could potentially be years.

As a key Brexiter aim was to 'take back control', we would have less control and no seat at the table to influence our destiny.

We'd be worse off than we are now, with no ability to make our own trade deals, which, I understand, is another key Brexity aim.

Deep down, would you really, truly be okay with us in this subordinate position.

As I said earlier this is a DRAFT version and I do expect to see the thorny bits dropped in due course to reflect ' The Peoples ' concerns.

The Backstop position was written as is, I would venture to suggest, at the behest of the EU negotiators to focus our minds but they will have observed how badly it was received and that we are even prepared to axe our PM to demonstrate our collective dismissal of this proposal.

Would they rather negotiate with Boris I wonder ?

The EU have other ideas. And I quote

_________________________________________________

Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened - EU official

Adam Fleming

Brussels reporter


A (very) senior EU official has suggested that the draft Withdrawal Agreement cannot be reopened, either by Westminster or the member states, saying: "We think we've exhausted our margin for manoeuvre."

"People who want changes will also have to take responsibility for the effect on the process."
______________________________________________________________

"Has suggested" and "We think" sound a little ambiguous to me Stephen

I think it's called covering your ar*se Keith

[Gill W]

If you are saying that it doesn't feel very nice to be described like that, try being on the end of the barrage that the majority on this forum direct towards the minority.

Yes, it does work both ways. We ALL need to remember that

No Gill I am not saying that at all. Why so aggressive? It doesn't bother me at all what people call me but if we are to keep debate as you say you would like it it helps if little digs at those with a different view are kept out of it. Your references to Jolly Boys and 'the usual suspects' were to my mind needlessly provocative. Since your complaint and that of GP I feel restraint has been shown on both sides. All I am asking is let's keep it that way.

That’s fine with me.

[oldbluefox]

Thank you Gill. Peace!!!

[Jack Staff]

Very apposite for the Prime Minister to use her Boycott analogy... He was, of course, famously and deliberately run out by one of his own teammates. Mr Botham, I believe.

{Gary Lineker}

[Stephen]

Thank you Gill. Peace!!!

Off .....Oops, me and my mouth

[Onelife]

Thank you Gill. Peace!!!

Off .....Oops, me and my mouth

Lol

You deserve a good spanking Stephen

[towny44]

If Jack and Gill are correct, that the agreement cannot be revisited, then it appears that the only game in town is TM's less than satisfactory proposal. It may not be ideal, and clearly the EU negotiators are better poker players than ours,but its better than no deal at all, and since a peoples vote also seems dead in the water, then we just have to make it work.
As a firm leaver what I now want is for the whole country to pull together and prove to those ba*****s in the EU bureaucracy that the UK can prosper outside the union, and maybe that will stiffen the resolve of the other disgruntled countries to plan their escape.

[david63]

The trouble with any deal is that we will never know whether it is a good deal, bad deal, best deal or worst deal as there is no benchmark.

We have, in principle, got a deal so let's get on with it.

I would like to see the whole of the elected members of or Parliament get on with it and stop trying to score self seeking points. This is the deal, bar a few tweaks, accept it and get on with the rest of our lives.

"Anorak Man" has been very quite on the deal!

[Ray B]

The trouble with any deal is that we will never know whether it is a good deal, bad deal, best deal or worst deal as there is no benchmark.

We have, in principle, got a deal so let's get on with it.

I would like to see the whole of the elected members of or Parliament get on with it and stop trying to score self seeking points. This is the deal, bar a few tweaks, accept it and get on with the rest of our lives.

"Anorak Man" has been very quite on the deal!

Not knowing what is good or bad has been the problem even before we voted.

[Gill W]

If Jack and Gill are correct, that the agreement cannot be revisited, then it appears that the only game in town is TM's less than satisfactory proposal. It may not be ideal, and clearly the EU negotiators are better poker players than ours,but its better than no deal at all, and since a peoples vote also seems dead in the water, then we just have to make it work.
As a firm leaver what I now want is for the whole country to pull together and prove to those ba*****s in the EU bureaucracy that the UK can prosper outside the union, and maybe that will stiffen the resolve of the other disgruntled countries to plan their escape.

It wasn't Jack or me who said that the deal wouldn't be revisited by the EU, it was Stephen.

However, I have now seen news reports that confirm this.

I asked this question earlier, and I'll ask it again to everybody.

Bearing in mind that Brexiters wanted us to take back control, this deal means we lose control and end up as rule takers with no seat at the table to influence the rules. This could go on for many years, as the Irish border won't magically resolve itself. No one who is Brexit minded seems willing to reject this situation - are you genuinely Ok about us being in a subordinate position? And possibly for years and years ?

We are a hopelessly divided nation, in complete chaos.

I personally cannot back this deal. The only positive thing I can say is, if parliament accepted the deal ( unlikely at this moment in time) we wouldn't fall off a cliff on 29th March. However, the deal leaves us in a much worse position than we are now, and in all consience I can't get behind it.

If parliament don't accept the deal. I think they'd go back to the people. If the people were mad enough to vote for a no deal Brexit, so be it. However, I think the majority, now in full possession of facts about the withdrawal bill would vote to stop it.

Donald Tusk has indicated that the EU would be willing to stop the process. He's said the EU are preparing for no deal, but they are best prepared for No Brexit.

I look forward to any reply to my question.

[towny44]

If Jack and Gill are correct, that the agreement cannot be revisited, then it appears that the only game in town is TM's less than satisfactory proposal. It may not be ideal, and clearly the EU negotiators are better poker players than ours,but its better than no deal at all, and since a peoples vote also seems dead in the water, then we just have to make it work.
As a firm leaver what I now want is for the whole country to pull together and prove to those ba*****s in the EU bureaucracy that the UK can prosper outside the union, and maybe that will stiffen the resolve of the other disgruntled countries to plan their escape.

It wasn't Jack or me who said that the deal wouldn't be revisited by the EU, it was Stephen.

However, I have now seen news reports that confirm this.

I asked this question earlier, and I'll ask it again to everybody.

Bearing in mind that Brexiters wanted us to take back control, this deal means we lose control and end up as rule takers with no seat at the table to influence the rules. This could go on for many years, as the Irish border won't magically resolve itself. No one who is Brexit minded seems willing to reject this situation - are you genuinely Ok about us being in a subordinate position? And possibly for years and years ?

We are a hopelessly divided nation, in complete chaos.

I personally cannot back this deal. The only positive thing I can say is, if parliament accepted the deal ( unlikely at this moment in time) we wouldn't fall off a cliff on 29th March. However, the deal leaves us in a much worse position than we are now, and in all consience I can't get behind it.

If parliament don't accept the deal. I think they'd go back to the people. If the people were mad enough to vote for a no deal Brexit, so be it. However, I think the majority, now in full possession of facts about the withdrawal bill would vote to stop it.

Donald Tusk has indicated that the EU would be willing to stop the process. He's said the EU are preparing for no deal, but they are best prepared for No Brexit.

I look forward to any reply to my question.

Overlong questions are rarely answered Gill, try to pose something shorter and more specific.

[oldbluefox]

On the face of it the deal as presented by TM appears a good compromise. However I understand the devil is in the detail which is what has heralded so many resignations. Seemingly we could be locked into areas of the EU with no say in what happens and no way out of it. I don't call that a good deal and is what I voted to avoid.

[Gill W]

If Jack and Gill are correct, that the agreement cannot be revisited, then it appears that the only game in town is TM's less than satisfactory proposal. It may not be ideal, and clearly the EU negotiators are better poker players than ours,but its better than no deal at all, and since a peoples vote also seems dead in the water, then we just have to make it work.
As a firm leaver what I now want is for the whole country to pull together and prove to those ba*****s in the EU bureaucracy that the UK can prosper outside the union, and maybe that will stiffen the resolve of the other disgruntled countries to plan their escape.

It wasn't Jack or me who said that the deal wouldn't be revisited by the EU, it was Stephen.

However, I have now seen news reports that confirm this.

I asked this question earlier, and I'll ask it again to everybody.

Bearing in mind that Brexiters wanted us to take back control, this deal means we lose control and end up as rule takers with no seat at the table to influence the rules. This could go on for many years, as the Irish border won't magically resolve itself. No one who is Brexit minded seems willing to reject this situation - are you genuinely Ok about us being in a subordinate position? And possibly for years and years ?

We are a hopelessly divided nation, in complete chaos.

I personally cannot back this deal. The only positive thing I can say is, if parliament accepted the deal ( unlikely at this moment in time) we wouldn't fall off a cliff on 29th March. However, the deal leaves us in a much worse position than we are now, and in all consience I can't get behind it.

If parliament don't accept the deal. I think they'd go back to the people. If the people were mad enough to vote for a no deal Brexit, so be it. However, I think the majority, now in full possession of facts about the withdrawal bill would vote to stop it.

Donald Tusk has indicated that the EU would be willing to stop the process. He's said the EU are preparing for no deal, but they are best prepared for No Brexit.

I look forward to any reply to my question.

Overlong questions are rarely answered Gill, try to pose something shorter and more specific.

I’ll take that to mean you don’t fancy answering the question!

[towny44]

If Jack and Gill are correct, that the agreement cannot be revisited, then it appears that the only game in town is TM's less than satisfactory proposal. It may not be ideal, and clearly the EU negotiators are better poker players than ours,but its better than no deal at all, and since a peoples vote also seems dead in the water, then we just have to make it work.
As a firm leaver what I now want is for the whole country to pull together and prove to those ba*****s in the EU bureaucracy that the UK can prosper outside the union, and maybe that will stiffen the resolve of the other disgruntled countries to plan their escape.

It wasn't Jack or me who said that the deal wouldn't be revisited by the EU, it was Stephen.

However, I have now seen news reports that confirm this.

I asked this question earlier, and I'll ask it again to everybody.

Bearing in mind that Brexiters wanted us to take back control, this deal means we lose control and end up as rule takers with no seat at the table to influence the rules. This could go on for many years, as the Irish border won't magically resolve itself. No one who is Brexit minded seems willing to reject this situation - are you genuinely Ok about us being in a subordinate position? And possibly for years and years ?

We are a hopelessly divided nation, in complete chaos.

I personally cannot back this deal. The only positive thing I can say is, if parliament accepted the deal ( unlikely at this moment in time) we wouldn't fall off a cliff on 29th March. However, the deal leaves us in a much worse position than we are now, and in all consience I can't get behind it.

If parliament don't accept the deal. I think they'd go back to the people. If the people were mad enough to vote for a no deal Brexit, so be it. However, I think the majority, now in full possession of facts about the withdrawal bill would vote to stop it.

Donald Tusk has indicated that the EU would be willing to stop the process. He's said the EU are preparing for no deal, but they are best prepared for No Brexit.

I look forward to any reply to my question.

Overlong questions are rarely answered Gill, try to pose something shorter and more specific.

I’ll take that to mean you don’t fancy answering the question!

No, it was genuine suggestion, but my answer was really in my previous post, there is only one option open to us IMO, but I know you will disagree with it.

[Gill W]

On the face of it the deal as presented by TM appears a good compromise. However I understand the devil is in the detail which is what has heralded so many resignations. Seemingly we could be locked into areas of the EU with no say in what happens and no way out of it. I don't call that a good deal and is what I voted to avoid.

I think the problem is, Brexit as promised wasn’t deliverable.

It’s all such a mess and I think a lot of people are sick of it.

It would be nice if we could have some certainty, it feels like we are in limbo at the moment

[Gill W]

It wasn't Jack or me who said that the deal wouldn't be revisited by the EU, it was Stephen.

However, I have now seen news reports that confirm this.

I asked this question earlier, and I'll ask it again to everybody.

Bearing in mind that Brexiters wanted us to take back control, this deal means we lose control and end up as rule takers with no seat at the table to influence the rules. This could go on for many years, as the Irish border won't magically resolve itself. No one who is Brexit minded seems willing to reject this situation - are you genuinely Ok about us being in a subordinate position? And possibly for years and years ?

We are a hopelessly divided nation, in complete chaos.

I personally cannot back this deal. The only positive thing I can say is, if parliament accepted the deal ( unlikely at this moment in time) we wouldn't fall off a cliff on 29th March. However, the deal leaves us in a much worse position than we are now, and in all consience I can't get behind it.

If parliament don't accept the deal. I think they'd go back to the people. If the people were mad enough to vote for a no deal Brexit, so be it. However, I think the majority, now in full possession of facts about the withdrawal bill would vote to stop it.

Donald Tusk has indicated that the EU would be willing to stop the process. He's said the EU are preparing for no deal, but they are best prepared for No Brexit.

I look forward to any reply to my question.

Overlong questions are rarely answered Gill, try to pose something shorter and more specific.

I’ll take that to mean you don’t fancy answering the question!

No, it was genuine suggestion, but my answer was really in my previous post, there is only one option open to us IMO, but I know you will disagree with it.

I was asking whether people were happy that we would be rule takers, maybe for several years especially as we were supposed to be ‘taking back control’

It’s about how people are feeling, not about what options are open to us