Brexit

[towny44]

On the face of it the deal as presented by TM appears a good compromise. However I understand the devil is in the detail which is what has heralded so many resignations. Seemingly we could be locked into areas of the EU with no say in what happens and no way out of it. I don't call that a good deal and is what I voted to avoid.

I think the problem is, Brexit as promised wasn’t deliverable.

It’s all such a mess and I think a lot of people are sick of it.

It would be nice if we could have some certainty, it feels like we are in limbo at the moment

You are right, but only because the EU never told us they were not prepared to sanction our leaving with any sort of reasonable deal before the referendum. Although I suspect if they had, the vote would have been 75-25 in favour of leaving.

[Golden Princess]

Did anyone really expect the EU to compromise their principles?

[Jack Staff]

I was asking whether people were happy that we would be rule takers, maybe for several years especially as we were supposed to be ‘taking back control’

It’s about how people are feeling, not about what options are open to us

I think some will accept any loss of sovereignty, any economic hardship, any loss of stature just so they can claim "we won!"
'The deal' simply kicks 'the end' down the road, to prolong the agony.
Unfortunately Brexit is like heroin. While the 'hit' of leaving March 29th is the goal at present, it will not be enough, that's what scares me the most.
We are all going to lose.

But we are British, we know what is right and Brexit isn't. We will resist. WWII and all that.
You did ask for feelings!

[Jack Staff]

On the face of it the deal as presented by TM appears a good compromise. However I understand the devil is in the detail which is what has heralded so many resignations. Seemingly we could be locked into areas of the EU with no say in what happens and no way out of it. I don't call that a good deal and is what I voted to avoid.

I think the problem is, Brexit as promised wasn’t deliverable.

It’s all such a mess and I think a lot of people are sick of it.

It would be nice if we could have some certainty, it feels like we are in limbo at the moment

You are right, but only because the EU never told us they were not prepared to sanction our leaving with any sort of reasonable deal before the referendum. Although I suspect if they had, the vote would have been 75-25 in favour of leaving.

Why should they give us "any sort of reasonable deal "?
We knew the rules. We wrote them.

[Jack Staff]

Astonishing that the lead “benefit” of Brexit Deal as given by PM in her bizarre non-press conference was to laud the end of the freedoms of British citizens to travel, work and play freely around their own continent.
She’s celebrating putting next generation at a disadvantage.

{Seb Dance MEP}

[Onelife]

If Jack and Gill are correct, that the agreement cannot be revisited, then it appears that the only game in town is TM's less than satisfactory proposal. It may not be ideal, and clearly the EU negotiators are better poker players than ours,but its better than no deal at all, and since a peoples vote also seems dead in the water, then we just have to make it work.
As a firm leaver what I now want is for the whole country to pull together and prove to those ba*****s in the EU bureaucracy that the UK can prosper outside the union, and maybe that will stiffen the resolve of the other disgruntled countries to plan their escape.

It wasn't Jack or me who said that the deal wouldn't be revisited by the EU, it was Stephen.

However, I have now seen news reports that confirm this.

I asked this question earlier, and I'll ask it again to everybody.

Bearing in mind that Brexiters wanted us to take back control, this deal means we lose control and end up as rule takers with no seat at the table to influence the rules. This could go on for many years, as the Irish border won't magically resolve itself. No one who is Brexit minded seems willing to reject this situation - are you genuinely Ok about us being in a subordinate position? And possibly for years and years ?

We are a hopelessly divided nation, in complete chaos.

I personally cannot back this deal. The only positive thing I can say is, if parliament accepted the deal ( unlikely at this moment in time) we wouldn't fall off a cliff on 29th March. However, the deal leaves us in a much worse position than we are now, and in all consience I can't get behind it.

If parliament don't accept the deal. I think they'd go back to the people. If the people were mad enough to vote for a no deal Brexit, so be it. However, I think the majority, now in full possession of facts about the withdrawal bill would vote to stop it.

Donald Tusk has indicated that the EU would be willing to stop the process. He's said the EU are preparing for no deal, but they are best prepared for No Brexit.

I look forward to any reply to my question.

To be honest Gill, l think our lack of influence has been quite apparent for a number of years now. As for being subservient and having no say over subsequent EU rulings..... I hardly think we will notice any difference.

I will be the first to say l was more than naive about how complex negotiations would turn out to be. However, we're where we are and seeing what our PM has managed to grind out of the EU isn't that far removed from what many brexiteers were after when we put our ticks in the leave box.....albeit, not in the time scales that we though possible when starting out on this process.

I've just read that Gove is edging his bets by not taking on the Brexit secretary job......With his support she stood a chance, without it l think your prediction of massive queues and total chaos will now come true.

What we do know is that if this dose come to fruition the Jolly remaineers will have played a big part in making it happen.

Sleep well.

keith

[david63]

Polite request.

Please do not keep quoting the whole of previous posts - only the relevant part needs to be quoted.

[Manoverboard]

Regardless of Stephens post ( see # 2878 above for detail ) suggesting that the EU will NOT negotiate any further changes I do not accept that a ' DRAFT ' version cannot be amended. Any comment to the opposite is just for show …. grand standing etc.




.

[david63]

I think that there is a vast difference between "renegotiating" (as Labour insist that they would do) and "tweaking" what is in the draft.

[Manoverboard]

We are agreed on that point .

[oldbluefox]

Interesting interview with a Remain supporter outside Westminster this morning.
He voted to Remain because of the state of the NHS, low wages, lack of housing, poor infrastructure, opportunity for something better etc etc.
After 40 years of the EU he explained some of the reasons why I voted to leave.

I believe there is still plenty of debate to be had on this draft and do not subscribe to defeatist attitudes. I feel sure that a certain M Thatcher wouldn't have either. We need a strong negotiator now to make the deal more acceptable and to address the misgivings (something we should have had long ago).

[oldbluefox]

The latest from Downing Street........... Jack and Gill will be bereft!!! (Any similarity to the nursery rhyme are coincidental!!! )

46406278_1894661590583671_5834468541947969536_n.jpg

[towny44]

Astonishing that the lead “benefit” of Brexit Deal as given by PM in her bizarre non-press conference was to laud the end of the freedoms of British citizens to travel, work and play freely around their own continent.
She’s celebrating putting next generation at a disadvantage.

{Seb Dance MEP}

Jack you keep repeating this but why should overseas job opportunities change in the future. If a UK national has the skills and qualifications to fill a vacancy in a European firm, then I assume they will still be considered for a job. I doubt that it will even affect the ability of students to go rail carding around Europe, and pick up the odd bar or waitress job, unless every single bar and restaurant owner is as bloody minded as a Brussels bureaucrat. As regards travel and holidays, why would that change, we might have to join a different passport queue but will that be a major problem?

[Gill W]

Polite request.

Please do not keep quoting the whole of previous posts - only the relevant part needs to be quoted.

I’m sorry, I know I do that quite a lot. When I’m on my iPad or phone, it’s really difficult to edit, as it’s very fiddly.

I will wait until later when I’m on my laptop to respond to the points that have been made.

(Brace yourselves )

[Manoverboard]

Polite request.

Please do not keep quoting the whole of previous posts - only the relevant part needs to be quoted.

I’m sorry, I know I do that quite a lot. When I’m on my iPad or phone, it’s really difficult to edit, as it’s very fiddly.

I will wait until later when I’m on my laptop to respond to the points that have been made.

(Brace yourselves )

Try doing a ( see # 2848 above ) instead of including the related text sur la telephono

[Gill W]

I think some will accept any loss of sovereignty, any economic hardship, any loss of stature just so they can claim "we won!"
'The deal' simply kicks 'the end' down the road, to prolong the agony.
Unfortunately Brexit is like heroin. While the 'hit' of leaving March 29th is the goal at present, it will not be enough, that's what scares me the most.
We are all going to lose.

But we are British, we know what is right and Brexit isn't. We will resist. WWII and all that.
You did ask for feelings!

Feelings are good - it shows we are passionate and care what happens.

Brexit reminds me of a pitch invasion at a football match. The aim is to get on the pitch, but once the aim is achieved, no one knows what to do next, and they just run around like headless chickens. I'm sure that's whats going to happen, if Brexiters achieve their 'win' on 29th March. They won't know what to do with their win, especially if it all goes horribly wrong. There'll be some major denial going on!

Astonishing that the lead “benefit” of Brexit Deal as given by PM in her bizarre non-press conference was to laud the end of the freedoms of British citizens to travel, work and play freely around their own continent.

I was pretty gobsmacked that ending free movement of people is seen as a benefit.

[screwy]

I'm pretty sure i saw a statement on Sky yesterday while TM was presenting the Draft to MP's that said Visa free travel to Europe would still go ahead.?

[Gill W]

To be honest Gill, l think our lack of influence has been quite apparent for a number of years now. As for being subservient and having no say over subsequent EU rulings..... I hardly think we will notice any difference.

This is one of the Brexiter mantras I don't get. We are apparantly too weak to have any influence within the EU, but simultaneously strong enough to be a world leader outside of the EU. Schrondinger's Brexit!

I've just read that Gove is edging his bets by not taking on the Brexit secretary job......With his support she stood a chance, without it l think your prediction of massive queues and total chaos will now come true.

I've only ever said that queues at ports would happen in the even of a no deal Brexit. Chaos? That's already true. I see Gove hasn't resigned for the cabinet. I think he's after the top job

What we do know is that if this dose come to fruition the Jolly remaineers will have played a big part in making it happen.

Oh come on, aren't we beyond all this picking at remainers?

But as you insist on bringing it up, if you want to have a think about who made this happen - look at Brexiters. If they hadn't voted like they did we wouldn't be in a state of chaos now. I don't blame them for their vote, but I think they need to have a long hard look at themselves. and if they still think Brexit is the best for the country after all that has happened and where we find ourselves now - They need to own this chaos

[Gill W]

Regardless of Stephens post ( see # 2878 above for detail ) suggesting that the EU will NOT negotiate any further changes I do not accept that a ' DRAFT ' version cannot be amended. Any comment to the opposite is just for show …. grand standing etc.




.

There's no time for renegotiating. The emergency summit on 25th November for the finalising and formalising of the deal

[Gill W]

Try doing a ( see # 2848 above ) instead of including the related text sur la telephono

That's a good idea. I'll do that if I have a burning desire to comment when I'm on the iphone

[Gill W]

I'm pretty sure i saw a statement on Sky yesterday while TM was presenting the Draft to MP's that said Visa free travel to Europe would still go ahead.?

Yes, visa free travel for when we go on holiday etc, but different to freedom of movement for workers

[Jack Staff]

Jack you keep repeating this but why should overseas job opportunities change in the future. If a UK national has the skills and qualifications to fill a vacancy in a European firm, then I assume they will still be considered for a job. I doubt that it will even affect the ability of students to go rail carding around Europe, and pick up the odd bar or waitress job, unless every single bar and restaurant owner is as bl**dy minded as a Brussels bureaucrat. As regards travel and holidays, why would that change, we might have to join a different passport queue but will that be a major problem?

You can't have it both ways. This is more cakeism.

[oldbluefox]

Are you saying that post Brexit we will be able to work and travel in Hong Kong, Dubai, New York or any other city in the world but the shutters will come down on anybody wanting to work and travel in the Euro 27? Forget your Continental holidays or your glass of French Chablis, Mercedes will become an antique of the past, foodstuffs will rot on the back of the lorries as they queue at Dover because this is what the Remain side seem to be implicating. We are back to Project Fear.

[Manoverboard]

I'm pretty sure i saw a statement on Sky yesterday while TM was presenting the Draft to MP's that said Visa free travel to Europe would still go ahead.?

Yes, visa free travel for when we go on holiday etc, but different to freedom of movement for workers

I am totally opposed to freedom of movement for workers into this or indeed any other Country …. except when we actually want the person who wishes to come here. If they have skills that we can collectively benefit from then no problem at all but if they are Albanian thugs who we are unable to deport then ' No thank you '. That was what was basically on offer in the draft, or so I believe.

[Manoverboard]

There have been many battles between the Politicians over the years regarding our being in the EU but not at any time that I can recall did the Brexiteers of the day try to frighten the pants off the populous into supporting their cause. Even Nige was nice about the whole thing as compared to what we are presently witnessing. So ...

Can the influential saboteurs within the Remain camp look us in the eye and deny that they are trying their hardest to trash the will of the people ?

I don't think so.