Brexit

Unread post by **Jack Staff** » 16 Nov 2018, 13:00

According to John " .. a UK national... will still be considered for a job..." and "...pick up the odd bar or waitress job"
According to MOBY "totally opposed to freedom of movement for workers into this ... Country"

You can't have it both ways.
I realise I have been selective, to make the point, and BTW Albania is not in the EU (yet).

Unread post by **Jack Staff** » 16 Nov 2018, 13:06

Manoverboard wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 12:44
There have been many battles between the Politicians over the years regarding our being in the EU but not at any time that I can recall did the Brexiteers of the day try to frighten the pants off the populous into supporting their cause. Even Nige was nice about the whole thing as compared to what we are presently witnessing. So ...

I do not think that Nige was very nice at all when he threatened to "don khaki, pick up a rifle and head for the front lines”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 41331.html

Manoverboard wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 12:44
Can the influential saboteurs within the Remain camp look us in the eye and deny that they are trying their hardest to trash the will of the people ?

I don't think so.

I certainly hope not.
But lets not get into that 'will of the people' tosh, yet again.

Unread post by **Onelife** » 16 Nov 2018, 13:21

I'm really pleased to read Gove 'hasn't' followed the line of sheep who think there are greener pastures out there. We all know Gove is a wolf in sheep's clothing but he knows his way round Westminster and is a very influential voice when it comes to rounding up "should we shouldn't we" MP's.

Unread post by **towny44** » 16 Nov 2018, 13:33

That wasn't Jack waving his placards on the 1 O'clock news, was it?

Unread post by **Manoverboard** » 16 Nov 2018, 13:41

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:00
According to John " .. a UK national... will still be considered for a job..." and "...pick up the odd bar or waitress job"
According to MOBY "totally opposed to freedom of movement for workers into this ... Country"

You can't have it both ways.
I realise I have been selective, to make the point, and BTW Albania is not in the EU (yet).

The draft, I believe, states that Visas will not be required for Business nor Tourism, it also advises that immigration and freedom of movement will be controlled and that we will decide how that is done based on the need of the Country rather than the person wishing to travel.

Albania, as you could have worked out, is purely illustrative … insert France if it pleases you.

Unread post by **Jack Staff** » 16 Nov 2018, 13:52

Manoverboard wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:41
The draft, I believe, states that Visas will not be required for Business nor Tourism, it also advises that immigration and freedom of movement will be controlled and that we will decide how that is done based on the need of the Country rather than the person wishing to travel.

So you think John is wrong then?

Unread post by **oldbluefox** » 16 Nov 2018, 15:02

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:06
But lets not get into that 'will of the people' tosh, yet again.

You don't believe in the will of the people tosh yet you want a People's Vote. I detect a certain contradiction or is it a case of "We lost the first match and didn't like the result so let's replay it until we win?" I think the EU has a past track record on this.

Anybody any ideas? If the EU is so wonderful why are there so many people, UK included, who want away from it. Is it delivering the prosperity and benefits everybody says it is? My answer - yes, to the few.

Unread post by **Stephen** » 16 Nov 2018, 15:11

towny44 wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:33
That wasn't Jack waving his placards on the 1 O'clock news, was it?

No, he was one of the hecklers in the background outside Westminster yesterday

Unread post by **Manoverboard** » 16 Nov 2018, 15:14

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:52

Manoverboard wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:41
The draft, I believe, states that Visas will not be required for Business nor Tourism, it also advises that immigration and freedom of movement will be controlled and that we will decide how that is done based on the need of the Country rather than the person wishing to travel.
So you think John is wrong then?

We are in agreement, John and I that is, we both posted to the effect that ' JOBS will be available / can be applied for.

It's you who's out of kilter

Unread post by **screwy** » 16 Nov 2018, 15:48

Can someone please explain to me what is so wrong with the Draft,Remainers and leavers please.

Unread post by **Stephen** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:02

In case anyone wants a read.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _Union.pdf

Unread post by **Gill W** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:07

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:06

But lets not get into that 'will of the people' tosh, yet again.

Hear, hear. it's about time 'will of the people' went into the Brexit soundbite bin. Along with 'the easiest deal in history', 'Brexit means Brexit and 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.

I see Gove, Fox, Mordaunt, Grayling and Leadsom are supposed to be meting at the weekend to rewite the deal. The one thats 500+ pages long and has taken 2 years to produce and the one that the EU won't renegotiate.

We really have gone through the looking glass now

Unread post by **Gill W** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:10

oldbluefox wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 15:02

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:06
But lets not get into that 'will of the people' tosh, yet again.
You don't believe in the will of the people tosh

The tosh is the idea that the will of the people is set in stone two and a half years ago, and will never change.

Unread post by **Gill W** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:23

screwy wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 15:48
Can someone please explain to me what is so wrong with the Draft,Remainers and leavers please.

IMO, its that we risk being tied to the EU in a customer union for an indefinate period if agreement isn't reached on trade by the end of the transition period.

We'll have to abide by their rules and regulations and have no seat at the table to influence what the rules and regulations are.

As a key Brexiter tenet was ' taken back control', this draft deal takes away the control we have.

from what I've seen, the Brexiters on here don't seem too fussed about losing control.

As a Remainer, I think it's crazy to rip up what we have and agree be rule takers rather than rule makers

Unread post by **oldbluefox** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:30

Gill W wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:10

The tosh is the idea that the will of the people is set in stone two and a half years ago, and will never change.

The will of the people was to leave the EU. It hasn't happened yet, rather akin to electing the Tories into power and then saying we don't like the result so we'll have another election before they have taken power.

Unread post by **Gill W** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:38

What if the people have changed their minds, now that they are better informed and have seen the deal and have decided they don't want to leave at all?
This is a lot different to a general election, and you know it.

Unread post by **oldbluefox** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:41

Gill W wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:23

screwy wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 15:48
Can someone please explain to me what is so wrong with the Draft,Remainers and leavers please.
IMO, its that we risk being tied to the EU in a customer union for an indefinate period if agreement isn't reached on trade by the end of the transition period.

We'll have to abide by their rules and regulations and have no seat at the table to influence what the rules and regulations are.

As a key Brexiter tenet was ' taken back control', this draft deal takes away the control we have.

from what I've seen, the Brexiters on here don't seem too fussed about losing control.

I can only speak for myself but I don't want to be controlled by the EU at all. As can be seen by negotiations so far the EU like to lock member states in thus making it very difficult to leave. They are a controlling institution and the sooner we break away from them the better.
I am happy to trade with the EU (as I think we will anyway after all of these shenanigans) but to be tied in to whatever they dream up is not my idea of Brexit. It's hardly surprising that everybody, Remainers and Leavers alike, are up in arms at the thought we could be locked into the customs union indefinitely after a certain length of time without any say in what is decided. And do you really think the EU will be in any hurry to come up with a solution or accept anything the UK puts forward? Of course they won't. This idea is naive in the extreme.

Unread post by **Manoverboard** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:45

Gill W wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:07

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 13:06

But lets not get into that 'will of the people' tosh, yet again.
Hear, hear. ….

Will of the people ' tosh ' …. you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Are the pair of you so arrogant that you believe it is honourable to ignore the wishes of 35,000,000 people in a State sponsored referendum just because it didn't go the way you wanted it to, the time frame is totally irrelevant and a red herring.

Have I got that right ?

Unread post by **Jack Staff** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:50

Manoverboard wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:45
Will of the people ' tosh ' …. you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Are the pair of you so arrogant that you believe it is honourable to ignore the wishes of 35,000,000 people in a State sponsored referendum just because it didn't go the way you wanted it to, the time frame is totally irrelevant and a red herring.

Have I got that right ?

No, you haven't.

Will of the people is a phrase loved by dictators and despots and as non-British as the standards it promotes.

Unread post by **Manoverboard** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:51

We have a new Brexit secretary …Stephen Barclay

Unread post by **oldbluefox** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:52

Gill W wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:38
What if the people have changed their minds, now that they are better informed and have seen the deal and have decided they don't want to leave at all?

So what happens if there is a second vote and the decision is still to leave? Best of three?

Unread post by **oldbluefox** » 16 Nov 2018, 16:54

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:50

Will of the people is a phrase loved by dictators and despots and as non-British as the standards it promotes.

Sorry Jack, I think that deserves a

and is used by those who can't accept they lost.

Unread post by **Manoverboard** » 16 Nov 2018, 17:11

screwy wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 15:48
Can someone please explain to me what is so wrong with the Draft,Remainers and leavers please.

As a Leaver …

Basically it is not exactly how I wanted it to be but I have to accept that compromise was needed to ensure good relations with the EU and the whole of the UK for the next 40 years and more. This DRAFT version is not perfect in several key areas but it should be possible to negotiate round these concerns. Eleventh hour solutions are the way with negotiating teams of all colours and the EU is NOT an exception.

Unread post by **Gill W** » 16 Nov 2018, 17:18

Manoverboard wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:45

Will of the people ' tosh ' …. you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Are the pair of you so arrogant that you believe it is honourable to ignore the wishes of 35,000,000 people in a State sponsored referendum just because it didn't go the way you wanted it to, the time frame is totally irrelevant and a red herring.

Have I got that right ?

No, you are missing the point, as usual

If there’s any arrogance around here, it’s not coming from me or Jack.

It seems to me, that some people on this forum are so desperate for their Brexit, they refuse acknowldedge that many people wish to have their say, NOW THAT MORE INFORMATION HAS BECOME AVAILABLE AND THE DRAFT DEAL HAS BEEN DRAWN UP.

You can’t really think, in any normal circumstance, people cling to something they decided to do 2 and a half years ago, regardless of what has happened since.

Unread post by **Gill W** » 16 Nov 2018, 17:25

oldbluefox wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:54

Jack Staff wrote: 16 Nov 2018, 16:50

Will of the people is a phrase loved by dictators and despots and as non-British as the standards it promotes.
Sorry Jack, I think that deserves a and is used by those who can't accept they lost.

Please, let’s not go back to ‘you lost get over it’

This is the future of our country we are talking about here, and we will all end up as losers if this proceeds

You asked what would happen if there was a new vote and the outcome was still leave. We’d obviously leave of course. If we’re still daft enough to want to leave after all this, then we probably would deserve all the pain and chaos

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