Brexit

[Gill W]

However I have heard little or nothing from remainers who now believe that TMs draft is dead in the water, about what they believe will happen with the Irish border if, as a result, we crash out with no deal. My understanding is that WTO rules demand that there has to be border checks to ensure the correct rules are being applied. How can the EU allow this to happen, when they are being so unwilling to consider a looser backstop, which with a reasonable trade deal would never need to be used?

I think you've hit on one of the reasons why some are so concerned about 'crashing out' without a deal. One of the dire consequences of a 'no deal' would be that we'd need a hard border between NI and the rest of Ireland. The EU seem to have gone to great lengths to protect the open Irish border in the WA, and they want both parties (after all, it's their border too) to have a say when any backstop is no longer required. I doubt if we would like it if they had a unilateral right to make a change regarding our shared border, so I think we have to accept it should be a joint decision to end any backstop.

If parliament doesn't agree to the WA, and we crash out - like us, the EU will have to accept there's a hard border. It's us who want to leave, and it would have been us who rejected the WA, so we would have the greater responsibility for breaking the Good Friday Agreement.

That's my view on it, anyway.

[Gill W]

Funny you should mention that Gill as l made another 4 jars yesterday.....11 in total

I hope you've got a stash of cheese to go with it.

[towny44]

Gill, you still have not answered the question I posed which was, why is the EU not prepared to offer a more relaxed backstop, if as they say they are determined not to have a hard border in Ireland. Surely they must realise that TM has no chance of getting parliament to approve the WA, and whoever ends up in number 10 will face the same problem, so the end result will be no deal and the EU will be to blame for the hard border in Ireland.

[Gill W]

Gill, you still have not answered the question I posed which was, why is the EU not prepared to offer a more relaxed backstop, if as they say they are determined not to have a hard border in Ireland. Surely they must realise that TM has no chance of getting parliament to approve the WA, and whoever ends up in number 10 will face the same problem, so the end result will be no deal and the EU will be to blame for the hard border in Ireland.

I don’t know the answer as I’m not the EU .

[towny44]

If parliament doesn't agree to the WA, and we crash out - like us, the EU will have to accept there's a hard border. It's us who want to leave, and it would have been us who rejected the WA, so we would have the greater responsibility for breaking the Good Friday Agreement.

That's my view on it, anyway.

Gill, you still have not answered the question I posed which was, why is the EU not prepared to offer a more relaxed backstop, if as they say they are determined not to have a hard border in Ireland. Surely they must realise that TM has no chance of getting parliament to approve the WA, and whoever ends up in number 10 will face the same problem, so the end result will be no deal and the EU will be to blame for the hard border in Ireland.

I don’t know the answer as I’m not the EU .

You may not be the EU yet you had previously said that the UK would have the greater responsibility for breaking the Good Friday agreement, something about which I very much disagree.

[Stephen]

You know what happens to grasses

[Gill W]

That’s fine, Towny, we are allowed to disagree.

[Manoverboard]

… One way forward is to open a new Topic called " Jolly Boys ONLY ' …

"Jolly boys ONLY"..........that's sexist moby.

Sorry OL, it hadn't occurred to me .

On reflection can you imagine anything worse than a man cave full of Jolly Brexiteers

ps …. makes me wonder if there are any / many lady Brexiteers Members ?

[Onelife]

… One way forward is to open a new Topic called " Jolly Boys ONLY ' …

"Jolly boys ONLY"..........that's sexist moby.

Sorry OL, it hadn't occurred to me .

On reflection can you imagine anything worse than a man cave full of Jolly Brexiteers

ps …. makes me wonder if there are any / many lady Brexiteers Members ?

'Sexist'.....don't worry about it Moby l only mentioned it because Av said you were a male chauvinist piglet

.......

I think it depends on our interpretation of 'Jolly'.....l certainly wouldn't be wanting a 'sleep over' that's for sure.

........

Brexitsheeers are out there, but l think Gill and Princess have frightened them off..... not surprising....they've brought me close to tears on occasions....squeak! squeak!

[Happydays]

I'm a firm Brexiteer and have commented. I know I want out and nothing anyone says will change my mind and NO Gill and Princess don't frighten me

[anniec]

I'm a firm Brexiteer and have commented. I know I want out and nothing anyone says will change my mind and NO Gill and Princess don't frighten me

I've commented once or twice, but the debate got a little black and white for me. When I voted over two years ago it was clear that there were no rights and wrongs, only different soothsayers, all of whom wanted to believe the point of view advanced by their side. Many of the views from both sides can be successfully defended; that doesn't make them right or wrong. No one knows the eventual outcome of Brexit, but I'd still vote to leave.

The people I feel most let down by are the politicians of all the parties - I used to think it was a lazy cliche to describe them as being "all the same", but I now fear they are.

[Manoverboard]

I'm a firm Brexiteer and have commented. I know I want out and nothing anyone says will change my mind and NO Gill and Princess don't frighten me

I've commented once or twice, but the debate got a little black and white for me. When I voted over two years ago it was clear that there were no rights and wrongs, only different soothsayers, all of whom wanted to believe the point of view advanced by their side. Many of the views from both sides can be successfully defended; that doesn't make them right or wrong. No one knows the eventual outcome of Brexit, but I'd still vote to leave.

The people I feel most let down by are the politicians of all the parties - I used to think it was a lazy cliche to describe them as being "all the same", but I now fear they are.

I'm a firm Brexiteer and have commented. I know I want out and nothing anyone says will change my mind and NO Gill and Princess don't frighten me

Welcome aboard ladies, I think CaroleF may be in our little Brexit gang too.

I doubt Gill and Princess would scare anybody if truth be told but the main concern for the Admin Team was that the opposing views of the Remainers and the Brexiteers was approaching fever pitch and more importantly David was considering pulling the plug because of it ... You three, as someone used to say, have shown commendable restraint.

[Kenmo1]

I'm not going to get involved in any discussion because I'm sick to death of hearing about it but I will admit to voting to leave (much to my son's utter disgust) and I would still vote to leave if there was a second vote.
However, I would be totally disillusioned with our voting system if there was a second vote as I believe the first vote should count. I can quite understand other people's misgivings and they are totally welcome to put their side of the debate but the vote to leave won.

[Ray Scully]

I'm not going to get involved in any discussion because I'm sick to death of hearing about it but I will admit to voting to leave (much to my son's utter disgust) and I would still vote to leave if there was a second vote.
However, I would be totally disillusioned with our voting system if there was a second vote as I believe the first vote should count. I can quite understand other people's misgivings and they are totally welcome to put their side of the debate but the vote to leave won.

I think it has passed who won and who lost. All the politician's energy should be on negotiating the best deal for UK Ltd

[Ranchi]

I'm not going to get involved in any discussion because I'm sick to death of hearing about it but I will admit to voting to leave (much to my son's utter disgust) and I would still vote to leave if there was a second vote.
However, I would be totally disillusioned with our voting system if there was a second vote as I believe the first vote should count. I can quite understand other people's misgivings and they are totally welcome to put their side of the debate but the vote to leave won

That is what happened in Scotland. Still some ill feeling years later. That is the problem with votes of this type.
As for a second referendum,it’s a bit like having two watches to ensure you know the correct time. Pointless. You need a minimum of three. (I know we are older and wiser now!)

[CaroleF]

I too voted out and the reason I haven't contributed lately is that the arguments just go back and forth and at some points were verging towards the unpleasant. I agree with Kenmo - a second referendum is out of the question as far as I'm concerned. If the people are asked and answer then that's the answer and the one thing that does really annoy me is when some people say that those of us who voted out didn't understand what we were doing, in other words we weren't intelligent enough to have followed the two campaigns and arguments - and sometimes they got rather ugly too. I would vote the same way again and the disdain with which the EU is treating us just enforces my belief that I was right to do so.

Just to add to the discussion, it will be interesting to see what the PM does now the DUP have acted in the way they have - much more serious than what the MPs are doing I would have thought. I always thought it was a mistake to elect a PM who was an admitted Remainer.

Carole

[towny44]

I always assumed that May was a closet leaver, which was why she did not campaign as vigorously as other cabinet remainers. Her big mistake was to call a general election in the hope of securing a much larger majority, however I have to admit that I thought it a good idea at the time. But she is also a pragmatist which is why she has decided that the current deal is the best she is likely to get in the time scale available to avoid a cliff edge no deal next March, and I assume if the backstop isn't needed and we agree a trade deal by December 2020, then most of the reasons I voted leave will have been met.
I realise that the current mood in parliament makes that seem unlikely, but I am a born optimist and a glass half full type, so I hope my instinct is right.

[Ray Scully]

I always assumed that May was a closet leaver, which was why she did not campaign as vigorously as other cabinet remainers. Her big mistake was to call a general election in the hope of securing a much larger majority, however I have to admit that I thought it a good idea at the time. But she is also a pragmatist which is why she has decided that the current deal is the best she is likely to get in the time scale available to avoid a cliff edge no deal next March, and I assume if the backstop isn't needed and we agree a trade deal by December 2020, then most of the reasons I voted leave will have been met.
I realise that the current mood in parliament makes that seem unlikely, but I am a born optimist and a glass half full type, so I hope my instinct is right.

[Mervyn and Trish]

All the current concerns seem to be about the backstop and getting trapped in a Customs Union as a consequence of it. None of that happens if we get on and negotiate a decent trade deal. My feeling is it's being used by both Remainers and the extreme Brexiters as a battering ram to further their cause. Call it Project Fear from both sides if you want.

The EU don't want us to go. Their objective at the moment is to stop us, not to do a mutually beneficial deal. That is why they are playing hard ball and would love a second referendum so they can play even tougher to try to influence that vote.

Once we've gone and that possibility is removed we become a third party large economy they will want to deal with. The dynamic will change. That's my belief.

[oldbluefox]

I would like to believe you and towny are right.

[screwy]

I assume Barney is Holidaying.? Missing his informative posts.

[Manoverboard]

Yeah, I do too …

[towny44]

I would like to believe you and towny are right.

So would I!

[Onelife]

I always assumed that May was a closet leaver, which was why she did not campaign as vigorously as other cabinet remainers. Her big mistake was to call a general election in the hope of securing a much larger majority, however I have to admit that I thought it a good idea at the time. But she is also a pragmatist which is why she has decided that the current deal is the best she is likely to get in the time scale available to avoid a cliff edge no deal next March, and I assume if the backstop isn't needed and we agree a trade deal by December 2020, then most of the reasons I voted leave will have been met.
I realise that the current mood in parliament makes that seem unlikely, but I am a born optimist and a glass half full type, so I hope my instinct is right.

l agree John,

The thing with change is that when you've been part of something for so long you can't conceive there being anything better outside of it.....l believe there is

Thankfully, there now seems to be a growing acceptance that this process has moved forward so it's time we all get behind our 'great' PM and see if she can pull off what most thought impossible

[oldbluefox]

I expect you think just because you sent her a box of Keefy chocolates she will put you on the New Year's Honours list.