Brexit

[Gill W]

Meanwhile in actual news

We have the first meeting today of the Alternative Arrangements Working Group, to try and find an alternative arrangement to the backstop.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47110641

It took the best part of two years to secure the WA, with its backstop, and we were assured that this was the only possible way forward.

Now, a small group are expected to find a new solution that has never been thought of before, in a couple of days, it's got to be agreed with the EU (who have consistently said that they will not reopen negotiations) within a couple more days, then it's got to come back to Westminster all done and dusted in time for the vote on 14th February (just 10 days time)

It's not exactly likely, is it.

…..………. contd

…. Why not, most things are achievable in this technical age if one looks hard enough.

It does seem however that Angela Merkel is a half glass full type of person given her comments in your News report …

" But German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the EU would listen to proposals to solve the Irish border "riddle", but they needed to hear how the UK wanted to do it."

It's not over until the fat lady sings

so they're going to invent a technological solution in about 3 days, I wish them good luck with that

[barney]

Part deux of Inside Europe is on BBC 2 tonight. The first part was fascinating.

[barney]

Meanwhile in actual news

We have the first meeting today of the Alternative Arrangements Working Group, to try and find an alternative arrangement to the backstop.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47110641

It took the best part of two years to secure the WA, with its backstop, and we were assured that this was the only possible way forward.

Now, a small group are expected to find a new solution that has never been thought of before, in a couple of days, it's got to be agreed with the EU (who have consistently said that they will not reopen negotiations) within a couple more days, then it's got to come back to Westminster all done and dusted in time for the vote on 14th February (just 10 days time)

It's not exactly likely, is it.

…..………. contd

…. Why not, most things are achievable in this technical age if one looks hard enough.

It does seem however that Angela Merkel is a half glass full type of person given her comments in your News report …

" But German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the EU would listen to proposals to solve the Irish border "riddle", but they needed to hear how the UK wanted to do it."

It's not over until the fat lady sings

so they're going to invent a technological solution in about 3 days, I wish them good luck with that

They say that 98%of imports from outside the EU arrive unchecked but with customs declarations. When a massive container ship arrives at Southampton, every single container is not physically checked. Its done randomly or by intelligence. Could not that system apply to Ireland and the UK?

[Gill W]

No point in asking me, I’m not the person tasked with finding a solution

If it was easy, I’d have thought they’d have come up with the solution months ago.

[towny44]

No point in asking me, I’m not the person tasked with finding a solution

If it was easy, I’d have thought they’d have come up with the solution months ago.

I fail to see why a copy of the current system could not be used, I dont understand why we can be trusted not to cheat while members of the EU but suddenly become pariahs once we leave. It really is bureaucracy gone mad.

[screwy]

No point in asking me, I’m not the person tasked with finding a solution

If it was easy, I’d have thought they’d have come up with the solution months ago.

C'mon Gill, were talking Politicians, Educated people not just any one.

[barney]

Fascinating programme. Shows it warts and all. For those who say that the EU does not get over involved, watch and weep. The arrogance is mind boggling especially Sarkozy. No wonder he was rejected by the French. Macron seems to be Sarkozy Mark 2.

[Jack Staff]

Fascinating programme. Shows it warts and all. ...

That's funny, I must have seen a different episode.
The one I saw had a state on the fringes of the EU, after causing trouble for some time, trying to tell the the EU how things were going to be.
Understandably the other 27 came together to do whatever they could, whilst maintaining the integrity of the union.

But I do agree, fascinating.

[towny44]

Fascinating programme. Shows it warts and all. ...

That's funny, I must have seen a different episode.
The one I saw had a state on the fringes of the EU, after causing trouble for some time, trying to tell the the EU how things were going to be.
Understandably the other 27 came together to do whatever they could, whilst maintaining the integrity of the union.

But I do agree, fascinating.

Jack, if you feel that's the way the rest of the EU view the UK, then why are you so keen to remain a member and for us continue to be a sidetracked sideshow??

[Manoverboard]

..... If it was easy, I’d have thought they’d have come up with the solution months ago.

The outline solution is already there but it may need to be adapted a tad. If we sign up with a deal we will have plenty of time to achieve it. I suspect that somewhere along the line it was thought of but ruled out due to such-a-bodies red lines.

[Onelife]

Fascinating programme. Shows it warts and all. ...

That's funny, I must have seen a different episode.
The one I saw had a state on the fringes of the EU, after causing trouble for some time, trying to tell the the EU how things were going to be.
Understandably the other 27 came together to do whatever they could, whilst maintaining the integrity of the union.

But I do agree, fascinating.

What came across to me was how they were all saying no no no only then, in the eleventh hour backing down and saying yes yes yes.

[david63]

What came across to me was how they were all saying no no no only then, in the eleventh hour backing down and saying yes yes yes.

That's the way the EU operate/negotiate

[Jack Staff]

One for all the Moggies here.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0

[Quizzical Bob]

But never mind the person. Do you not accept that manufacturing has been decimated during our time in the EU?

Manufacturing has declined but that does not mean that membership of the EU is the cause of it.

Products have become more sophisticated today and after-sales services form a large part of any company's revenue.

[barney]

Nothing is the EUs fault. Everything good =EU. Everything bad = UK. Millions of migrants sitting around waiting for decisions about their future. Nothing to do with the EU? Millions of unemployed young people. Nothing to do with the EU? No growth in Italy for a decade. Nothing to do with the EU? Last nights programme highlights how influential the EU is on every day life for ordinary people.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Manufacturing has declined but that does not mean that membership of the EU is the cause of it.

And manufacturing may continue to decline and that doesn't mean Brexit is the cause of it.

[Quizzical Bob]

Quizzical Bob makes a good case, not for remaining in the EU, but for striking a deal which is satisfactory to both ourselves and the EU.

There is no deal that comes even close to remaining in the EU and being a member of the Single Market.

If ease of trade was the only criteria then your comment may have merit QB, since there are lots of other reasons, that the leavers on this thread have expounded tirelessly over the last 3 years, involved in the decision then your comment lacks any merit.

I must have missed those. I have been asking for more than two years for some - any - benfits of leaving and I am still waiting for an answer. We are giving up a lot and gaining nothing:

European Citiszenship.
Freedom to live anywhere in 28 countries.
Freedom to work anywhere in 28 countries.
Freedom to study anywhere in 28 countries.
Freedom to move our goods and posessions throughout 28 countries.
Freedom to buy and sell goods and services throughout 28 countries and over 500 million people.
The benefit of over 60 trade agreements worldwide.
Pooling of intelligence and crime resources.
Common data systems for customs and tariffs.

To name but a few, but the most important by far is the Single Market. It is clear from your dismissal of my arguments that you do not appreciate the enormous benefits that we get from our membership of the Single Market. These are usually put at £20bn per year in extra UK tax revenues arising from the increased economic activity. These more than offset our annual contributions.

[Quizzical Bob]

Nothing is the EUs fault. Everything good =EU. Everything bad = UK. Millions of migrants sitting around waiting for decisions about their future. Nothing to do with the EU? Millions of unemployed young people. Nothing to do with the EU? No growth in Italy for a decade. Nothing to do with the EU? Last nights programme highlights how influential the EU is on every day life for ordinary people.

Of course it's nothing to do with the EU. What on earth do the migrants have to do with the EU? What has growth in Italy to do with the EU? Birth rate is more significant. Or is that the fault of the EU too?

[Quizzical Bob]

Manufacturing has declined but that does not mean that membership of the EU is the cause of it.

And manufacturing may continue to decline and that doesn't mean Brexit is the cause of it.

Brexit will make it worse. How could it do anything other?

[Mervyn and Trish]

If ease of trade was the only criteria then your comment may have merit QB, since there are lots of other reasons, that the leavers on this thread have expounded tirelessly over the last 3 years, involved in the decision then your comment lacks any merit.

I must have missed those. I have been asking for more than two years for some - any - benfits of leaving and I am still waiting for an answer.

You seem to have the same problem as Jack then QB.

For the two of you to keep on relentlessly saying you've been asking and are still waiting is bizarre.

The answer to your question has been posted repeatedly. Maybe your PC is defective?

Or maybe if you don't agree with an argument or opinion you don't see it?

I don't expect Remainers to agree with Leaver opinions, that is the nature of debate.

Any more than I agree with your views.

But I don't pretend you haven't made your position clear.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Manufacturing has declined but that does not mean that membership of the EU is the cause of it.

And manufacturing may continue to decline and that doesn't mean Brexit is the cause of it.

Brexit will make it worse. How could it do anything other?

An opinion to which you are entitled QBob.

As John Redwood is entitled to his. And I to mine

[barney]

Nothing is the EUs fault. Everything good =EU. Everything bad = UK. Millions of migrants sitting around waiting for decisions about their future. Nothing to do with the EU? Millions of unemployed young people. Nothing to do with the EU? No growth in Italy for a decade. Nothing to do with the EU? Last nights programme highlights how influential the EU is on every day life for ordinary people.

Of course it's nothing to do with the EU. What on earth do the migrants have to do with the EU? What has growth in Italy to do with the EU? Birth rate is more significant. Or is that the fault of the EU too?

I give up. Zealots rarely listen to reason. If you don't think that policies from the EU have nothing to do with these, then I give up.

[towny44]

There is no deal that comes even close to remaining in the EU and being a member of the Single Market.

If ease of trade was the only criteria then your comment may have merit QB, since there are lots of other reasons, that the leavers on this thread have expounded tirelessly over the last 3 years, involved in the decision then your comment lacks any merit.

I must have missed those. I have been asking for more than two years for some - any - benfits of leaving and I am still waiting for an answer. We are giving up a lot and gaining nothing:

European Citiszenship.
We will still be Europeans, just not EU members.
Freedom to live anywhere in 28 countries.
Freedom to work anywhere in 28 countries.
Freedom to study anywhere in 28 countries.
Not certain what benefits these give, if you are qualified enough you should be able to get a job anywhere.
Freedom to move our goods and posessions throughout 28 countries.
You may need to explain this QB, are suggesting the EU will confiscate our cars and luggage as we exit the Channel Tunnel?
Freedom to buy and sell goods and services throughout 28 countries and over 500 million people.
The Govt hope to secure a bespoke trade deal, if TM can get her agmt through Parliament.
The benefit of over 60 trade agreements worldwide.
We will have to wait and see how many we achieve for ourselves.
Pooling of intelligence and crime resources.
Since we are the main contributors of EU intelligence, then I guess they will be the losers here.
Common data systems for customs and tariffs.
I still don't understand why we can't copy and paste these, with the necessary changes to signify they relate to UK trade.

To name but a few, but the most important by far is the Single Market. It is clear from your dismissal of my arguments that you do not appreciate the enormous benefits that we get from our membership of the Single Market. These are usually put at £20bn per year in extra UK tax revenues arising from the increased economic activity. These more than offset our annual contributions.

Is anyone able to quantify such a claim, those supporting membership will cherry pick stats to suit them and vice versa, who knows whether our trade outside the EU has been worth £20bn pa, BUT we will shortly find out if being outside has any monetary benefits, which as I keep pointing out is not the only criteria on which to judge our membership.

[Manoverboard]

We all seem to think that we can blame the ' EU ' for a whole bunch of stuff bar Jack, Gill & QBob … but is it specifically the Courts and / or the Human Rights Brigade who are the villains rather than those who deal with day to day trading aspects ?

[barney]

I think that the attached link says more about the EU than I could
https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-u ... sts-spain/

Colony ? How dare they! What an insult to the people of Gibraltar.
They claim to be the purveyors of democracy while ignoring the wishes of simple folk at every turn.
I'm blooming glad that we are getting out and will be our own masters.

And before the anti democrats jump on the bandwagon and point out that Gibraltar voted to remain in the EU, yes I know that they did.
And if they wanted a referendum to leave the jurisdiction of the UK in favour of Spain, I'm 100% sure the UK government to allow it.
But taking it by stealth is outrageous.

They condemn Russia for annexing Crimea, and then try to do the very same thing with Gibraltar and Northern Ireland.

History shows us that ultimately all Empires fall.
The EU empire may be closer to falling than the EU zealots think.