Current Affairs

[oldbluefox]

Yes, higher wages. However, since the 2008 crash and the subsequent seven years of Conservative austerity I can well see how some would think it is the EU that was holding wages down NOW.

Sorry Jack. You cannot blame everything on the 2008 crash or the years of austerity of the Tory government. You try telling that to those in the suburbs and in rural UK. Some have benefited from the EU, notably those working in the finance industry or sitting in the EU gravy train but that is not the general consensus, neither pre nor post 2008.

[Jack Staff]

Yes, higher wages. However, since the 2008 crash and the subsequent seven years of Conservative austerity I can well see how some would think it is the EU that was holding wages down NOW.

Sorry Jack. You cannot blame everything on the 2008 crash or the years of austerity of the Tory government. You try telling that to those in the suburbs and in rural UK. Some have benefited from the EU, notably those working in the finance industry or sitting in the EU gravy train but that is not the general consensus, neither pre nor post 2008.

I blame the people who are in charge of fiscal policy in this country. Last time I checked that was not the EU.

[barney]

I'm very sorry that Jack took my previous post as a personal insult and I apologise.

It was never my intention to personally insult Jack.

My intention was to insult all of the Brexit Remoaners who are constantly undermining their own country and in many cases, openly supporting the EU in their 'negotiating' stance.

In many cases, it could almost be considered sedition.

Maybe not up to Lord Haw Haw standards be certainly steering towards that.

I was delighted to read this morning that the Tory party has withdrawn the party whip from the two Tory MEPs for voted with the EU Parliament against the UK, and that Davis has written to Corbyn asking him to do the same.

Whether you wanted Remain Or Leave is now totally irrelevant. The UK is leaving the EU but and small, vocal minority are still plotting and scheming against their own country getting the best possible deal, in the vain hope that the situation can be reversed.
Wouldn't it be good if 'great minds' like Clegg and Soubrey put that much effort in to taking up our country and using their time trying to convince the EU that a deal is in all interests.
Instead, they pick, pick, pick away and do everything to undermine the situation.
In other less liberal countries, they would be locked up.

You can drive a bus through the argument to Leave the EU.
Equally, you can drive a bus through the argument to stay in the EU.

The situation we are now in leads to only two coherent strategies.
One is to unilaterally call the whole thing off, beg the EU to stay under existing terms and risk the consequences for the majority of the electorate.
The second is to tell the EU side that unless constructive trade talks begin at the next formal meeting, the UK unilaterally withdraws from the discussions but is happy to talk about a trade agreement once we have left in March 2019.

The UK can then spend the coming months making preparations for the future.

Once the UK is out, then any political party can openly stand for election on the ticket of joining the European Union.
If they win power, then they can apply to join with the backing of the UK electorate.
Given that in the last election, over 80% voted for parties that now openly support leaving the EU, I wouldn't fancy their chances, but who knows.

[Manoverboard]

Don't even think about having an election.

I recall that Jack once posted to the effect that the Tories would like to have an election because Labour would probably win it ... the Tories could then presumably blame them for the resultant mess that would follow.

I voted ' Out ' and would do so again but I had hoped that all the MPs would pull together in the interests of us all but sadly they have demonstrated just how devoted they are to their own self interests.

Shame on so many of them, says I .

[Jack Staff]

I'm very sorry that Jack took my previous post as a personal insult and I apologise.

It was never my intention to personally insult Jack.

Thank you.

My intention was to insult all of the Brexit Remoaners who are constantly undermining their own country and in many cases, openly supporting the EU in their 'negotiating' stance.

In many cases, it could almost be considered sedition.

That is exactly what we are fighting against. We believe in free speech, but are being tarnished by accusations of being 'saboteurs' (Daily Mail) and 'citizens of nowhere' (Theresa May) to quote just two.
But sedition also means against the monarch. At the opening of the Brexit parliament she left no one in any doubt as to where her particular loyalties lie. So you can be a Roundhead if you like, I will continue to be a Cavalier. Maybe the result will be the same as last time and the Royalists may have to wait a few years for normality to be returned, as last time.

Maybe not up to Lord Haw Haw standards be certainly steering towards that.

The spokesperson of a repressive state? I think Leadsom is doing a fine job here.

I was delighted to read this morning that the Tory party has withdrawn the party whip from the two Tory MEPs for voted with the EU Parliament against the UK, and that Davis has written to Corbyn asking him to do the same.

That is the trouble with democracy, it can be hard to control. At least now they can freely vote with their conscience.

Whether you wanted Remain Or Leave is now totally irrelevant. The UK is leaving the EU but and small, vocal minority are still plotting and scheming against their own country getting the best possible deal, in the vain hope that the situation can be reversed.

We do want the best deal possible for our country. It is the deal we already have.
The hope is not so vain, as todays news proves.

Wouldn't it be good if 'great minds' like Clegg and Soubrey put that much effort in to taking up our country and using their time trying to convince the EU that a deal is in all interests.
Instead, they pick, pick, pick away and do everything to undermine the situation.
In other less liberal countries, they would be locked up.

Again this is exactly what we are fighting to stop. Democracy can be a bit of a bu***r when it doesn't go your way, eh?

You can drive a bus through the argument to Leave the EU.
Equally, you can drive a bus through the argument to stay in the EU.

About the only 'valid' argument (that I know of) against stay is the formation of an EU federal state. By leaving we have removed our veto and so have increased this 'threat'. Brilliant work.

The situation we are now in leads to only two coherent strategies.
One is to unilaterally call the whole thing off, beg the EU to stay under existing terms and risk the consequences for the majority of the electorate.

Only 37% of the electorate voted for leave in the first place. I doubt leave could manage that today.

The second is to tell the EU side that unless constructive trade talks begin at the next formal meeting, the UK unilaterally withdraws from the discussions but is happy to talk about a trade agreement once we have left in March 2019.

The cliff edge.

The UK can then spend the coming months making preparations for the future.

It is already too late. Just the lorries queuing for fast track customs will take an immense amount of infrastructure. I am surprised you have not told us about all the building work going on. The lorries will also need a large government IT system and they always work, first time, out of the box.

Once the UK is out, then any political party can openly stand for election on the ticket of joining the European Union.
If they win power, then they can apply to join with the backing of the UK electorate.
Given that in the last election, over 80% voted for parties that now openly support leaving the EU, I wouldn't fancy their chances, but who knows.

Yes, Remain made a tactical mistake here. While it is technically true that over 80% voted for parties that now openly support leaving the EU, it was in fact an anti Conservative Brexit vote. Anyone but Tory was the mantra. While it did stop May and her steam roller Brexit, it has also lead to a resurgent Corbyn (and half that of that 80%).

[Mervyn and Trish]

Jack you are truly deluded if you believe the election was an anti Brexit vote. The result was entirely based on uncosted and unaffordable bribes by Corbyn and his cronies. Even his union paymaster in chief said if they were only reduced to 200 seats it would be a good result. The entire Labour campaign was geared to that and saving Jezzer's skin. That they succeeded in doing. Had they actually won they would now be shitting themselves at the prospect of having to deliver.

[Jack Staff]

Jack you are truly deluded if you believe the election was an anti Brexit vote. The result was entirely based on uncosted and unaffordable bribes by Corbyn and his cronies. Even his union paymaster in chief said if they were only reduced to 200 seats it would be a good result. The entire Labour campaign was geared to that and saving Jezzer's skin. That they succeeded in doing. Had they actually won they would now be shitting themselves at the prospect of having to deliver.

I am surprised to see some remains of my delusions are still available:
https://www.tactical2017.com/
https://bestforbritain.org/
https://www.stopthetori.es/
http://whothefuckshouldivotefor.com/

'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'. That is why Labour did so well in June.

[Jack Staff]

How to try and polish a King Richard III ...
http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2017/ ... -live.html

[barney]

What you seem unable to comprehend Jack is that Jezza is a far harder Brexiteer than May.
He is certainly no saviour of the remain camp.
Many of his policies could only work outside of the EU.
They are not keen on state interference which is why AirMalta is about to go to the wall.

As for his policies, bring it on I say.
Free everything suits me down to the ground and I'll be pushing up daisies when the bill need paying.

Ref your last attachment - that's an awful lot of opinion presented as fact.
That seems to be the trend these days.
Some of it may well be true, but no one really knows, do they.

I don't mind opinions, that's what makes the world go round.
When George Osborne said that every household would be £4,532.15 pence worse off, if it was a leave vote, he totally lost credibility (and his job) because that was patently a lie, and folk saw through it.

It still amazes me as to we some are so willing the future to be bleak so that can be proven right.
It's almost like some kind of illness.

[Jack Staff]

What you seem unable to comprehend Jack is that Jezza is a far harder Brexiteer than May.
He is certainly no saviour of the remain camp.
Many of his policies could only work outside of the EU.
They are not keen on state interference which is why AirMalta is about to go to the wall.

As for his policies, bring it on I say.
Free everything suits me down to the ground and I'll be pushing up daisies when the bill need paying.

I am under no illusions as to Corbyns polices.
He was a savior in June. At that point the May steamroller Brexit was slowed to a crawl. Which is why Remainers voted for him. However the Remainers well know that he is not the answer to stopping Brexit. Brexit is doing that all by itself!

Are you sure you want to bring up the subject of aviation?

[Jack Staff]

Ref your last attachment - that's an awful lot of opinion presented as fact. http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2017/ ... -live.html
That seems to be the trend these days.
Some of it may well be true, but no one really knows, do they.

I don't mind opinions, that's what makes the world go round.
When George Osborne said that every household would be £4,532.15 pence worse off, if it was a leave vote, he totally lost credibility (and his job) because that was patently a lie, and folk saw through it.

It still amazes me as to we some are so willing the future to be bleak so that can be proven right.
It's almost like some kind of illness.

The author Pete North, editor of LeaveHQ, director of Leave Alliance.

When he starts saying things like that, most people might stop to think ....

[barney]

You are totally missing the point Jack.
No matter what is said by whom, it is still only opinion.

The people screaming for clarity of the government position are the very same critics who are causing the uncertainty with their antics.

Why don't we all just agree that the UK is leaving in March 2019 and the world as we know it will end the following day.
There, put to bed once and for all.
I'm going for a massive spend up in February.

[towny44]

I wonder if that will shut him up Barney, or if he will be back with further episodes from the Bremoaners hand book?

[Mervyn and Trish]

Which bit of aviation Jack? How the French killed Concorde because only the British fleet were making money?

[oldbluefox]

Nice to see how the EU is running to the aid of BAE Systems and supporting the Typhoon project.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Here's something I don't get. The Brexit negotiations are important for both sides. We both need a positive deal. So why are they pissing about and only meeting for a few days then packing it in till another month has passed?

I realise whatever they come up with will need to be referred to various governments for ratification but why not lock the negotiating teams in the building for 8 hours a day, every day, until they come up with concrete proposals.

If Barnier comes out and says again we've no progress tell him, and our lot, to get back in until there is. What are they being paid for if not to get a result? Whatever that looks like.

[david63]

Merv - how many times times have we told you to stop using common sense and logic?

[oldbluefox]

But we are dealing with the EU. That's how it works.

[Manoverboard]

The EU negotiators have to make it appear extremely difficult ... in order to justify their inflated salaries .

[Jack Staff]

Here's something I don't get. Why Brexiters think this is a negotiation of equals.
It should not be forgotten that it was us who asked for this.
If we leave, no deal, the EU loses trade deal access to one country.
The UK loses access to 27 countries. But that's not all, we also lose trade deal access to ALL other countries around the world!
We have no trade deals of our own, we currently use our EU membership.

So we just fall back on the WTO option, right? Wrong. We are not even members (in our own right) at present. That would have to be negotiated and we are good at negotiation aren't we? This is where countries like Argentina, spot an opportunity and the future of our country depends on them. Might not be Argentina, there are a lot of countries with scores to settle with us. In any case it takes time. We do not have that.

Even the chief Brexiters don't like the WTO option. The view from Leave Alliance ...
"One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected." http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128
An informative read, if you can get through it. I admit I couldn't.

Yes, this is my "opinion" and it may be "deluded", but as time passes it becomes increasingly like reality.

[oldbluefox]

Here's something I don't get. Why Brexiters think this is a negotiation of equals.
It should not be forgotten that it was us who asked for this.
If we leave, no deal, the EU loses trade deal access to one country.

The value of the trade deficit was about £60 billion in the 12 months to September 2016. The UK imported £302 billion worth of goods and services from the EU, and exported £242 billion worth, according to the Office for National Statistics.
If the deficit was the other way around I would tend to agree with you, Jack.

The UK loses access to 27 countries. But that's not all, we also lose trade deal access to ALL other countries around the world!
We have no trade deals of our own, we currently use our EU membership.

In other words we have sold out to the EU who are now pulling all the strings of puppet UK and we are no longer capable of standing on our own two feet? I have more faith in the UK than that.

.....there are a lot of countries with scores to settle with us. In any case it takes time. We do not have that.

So the only alternative is to hide behind the cloak of the EU because the rest of the world hates us? Who are all these countries with scores to settle?

................but as time passes it becomes increasingly like reality.

Much like all the prophesies of doom put out by the Remain camp pre-referendum which failed to materialise? Reality or scare-mongering? It depends which side of the fence you are sitting.

[Manoverboard]

Argentine is surely not a good example ... they have tons of high quality beef to sell us.

[oldbluefox]

Pay a visit to La Boqueria in Barcelona and see the size of the fruits and fresh produce on offer and then ask yourself where the undersized rejects end up. Somebody must get them..........................

[Jack Staff]

Here's something I don't get. Why Brexiters think this is a negotiation of equals.
It should not be forgotten that it was us who asked for this.
If we leave, no deal, the EU loses trade deal access to one country.

The value of the trade deficit was about £60 billion in the 12 months to September 2016. The UK imported £302 billion worth of goods and services from the EU, and exported £242 billion worth, according to the Office for National Statistics.
If the deficit was the other way around I would tend to agree with you, Jack.

That figure of £60 billion is a figure of Brexiter propaganda. Because, of course, we do not trade with the EU. We trade with France, Germany Italy ... Therefore the figure for each of the other 27 countries is much more like £2.2 billion each. That's only two DUP bribes per country.
The figure will vary greatly per specific country and for some will even be the other way around.

[oldbluefox]

Here's something I don't get. Why Brexiters think this is a negotiation of equals.
It should not be forgotten that it was us who asked for this.
If we leave, no deal, the EU loses trade deal access to one country.

The value of the trade deficit was about £60 billion in the 12 months to September 2016. The UK imported £302 billion worth of goods and services from the EU, and exported £242 billion worth, according to the Office for National Statistics.
If the deficit was the other way around I would tend to agree with you, Jack.

That figure of £60 billion is a figure of Brexiter propaganda. Because, of course, we do not trade with the EU. We trade with France, Germany Italy ... Therefore the figure for each of the other 27 countries is much more like £2.2 billion each. That's only two DUP bribes per country.
The figure will vary greatly per specific country and for some will even be the other way around.

It looks like the Office for National Statistics who provided the statistics are Brexiters.