Brexit

[Quizzical Bob]

What l can say for certain is that if Jack and the remainers were to get a second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed, it would cause a divide in this country the likes of which this country has never seen before, it would be far worse than a few marches on the streets, it will have discredited the very thing that this country holds dear "Democracy". A democratic vote dosen't work the way Jack & Co wants it to work.... it works by way of the majority who voted.

Please Jack, don't give me...but, but, they told lies?.....l can't think of any referendum or election where bullsh*t, lies, haven't been used by both sides....its what happens, but we still end up with a democratically represented decision. ...that's democracy working at its best..

Be careful what you wish for remainers....The consequences of your actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.

Er... if by any remote chance the vote were different then how can that result in "the democratic will of the people being reversed"?

Or is democracy only valid when it suits an individual's point of view?

[oldbluefox]

Or is democracy only valid when it suits an individual's point of view?

Hi Bob,
That is what the Remainers believe.

[oldbluefox]

So what is the Canada Agreement known as CETA?

Something that does not solve the NI border, so is not an available option.

In this instance why would you need a border?
"CETA will remove 99% of customs duties on European exports to Canada and Canadian exports to the EU while, after seven years, all tariffs on industrial products will disappear.
The large bulk of tariffs on agricultural products will also be removed by both sides under CETA".

[barney]

So what is the Canada Agreement known as CETA?

Something that does not solve the NI border, so is not an available option.

The easiest way for there to be no border in Ireland is for the EU to agree a zero tarrif trade agreement.
That is what our government is looking for on agri products and other things, just not on services and financial.
Job done.
Except that they don't want to.

If you remember Jack, they initially stated that the UK could not continue with passporting rights into the EU market.
They thought this was a game chnager, but the UK said fine, we can live with that, safe in the knowledge that we would benefit outside of their regulations.
Then the penny dropped in Brussels.
So then they said that we can't have products without services because it's part of their 'four freedoms'

So, when the border goes up on the Irish side, don't blame the UK for it.
It's EU dogma.

On the UK side, we can have a token presence to placate the WTO rules on border for one, border for all.
Basically, I think that 99.9% will just be waved through which will please the Irish.

The EU negotiator is clearly being obstreperous.
One minute he says he is carry out the mandate of the remaining 27 and the next minute he seems to be driving the bus.
He has warned individual nations NOT to attend the seminars in London that the UK Government are putting on for ministers from Europe to help negate fears.
What a nice bunch they seem to be in Brussels.

It seems to me that many of the Leavers know more about the EU than those wishing to harness themselves to it.
Maybe that's why we are more keen to leave.

link - jobs for the boys

https://www.politico.eu/article/martin- ... promotion/

[Jack Staff]

What l can say for certain is that if Jack and the remainers were to get a second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed,

In that case it would no longer be the democratic will of the people then, would it?

it would cause a divide in this country the likes of which this country has never seen before, it would be far worse than a few marches on the streets, it will have discredited the very thing that this country holds dear "Democracy".

You wish to subvert democracy because of some thugs? A few fascists on the streets? We can cope with that. We are British and hold democracy dear.

"Countries which cannot change their minds cease to be democracies” : David Davis.

A democratic vote dosen't work the way Jack & Co wants it to work.... it works by way of the majority who voted.

That was then, this is now.
What are you so afraid of? All the Brexiters saying it is the will of the people ...If that were true you guys would be the first demanding another vote.
Support for Brexit has gone. You know it, I know it and that is why you are against having another vote.

Please Jack, don't give me...but, but, they told lies?.....l can't think of any referendum or election where bullsh*t, lies, haven't been used by both sides....its what happens, but we still end up with a democratically represented decision. ...that's democracy working at its best..

Leave not only lied, they broke the law.

Be careful what you wish for remainers....The consequences of your actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.

Right back at you, Keith.

[Jack Staff]

So what is the Canada Agreement known as CETA?

Something that does not solve the NI border, so is not an available option.

In this instance why would you need a border?
"CETA will remove 99% of customs duties on European exports to Canada and Canadian exports to the EU while, after seven years, all tariffs on industrial products will disappear.
The large bulk of tariffs on agricultural products will also be removed by both sides under CETA".

No border, no WTO.

[barney]

What WTO rules say
First, a fact:
There is no rule in the WTO requiring its member governments to secure their borders.
After Brexit, the UK could drop all border controls for traded goods and services and it would be perfectly within its WTO rights.

The WTO does not tell countries what to do other than to keep their promises (abide by the WTO agreements and their WTO commitments)
Even when countries break their WTO promises, there is no “confrontation” with “the WTO” and least of all with “WTO officials”
The WTO is member-driven. If in the future other WTO countries believe the UK is violating an agreement, it is they, not the WTO bureaucracy, who will act. They can do so by complaining in a WTO meeting or filing a legal challenge in WTO dispute settlement

Since there is no WTO rule requiring governments to secure their borders, failing to do so would not break any specific agreement

Where the UK might run into trouble is under the WTO’s non-discrimination rules, particularly “most-favoured-nation” treatment (MFN), which means treating one’s trading partners equally.

check it out if you wish

[Onelife]

What l can say for certain is that if Jack and the remainers were to get a second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed,

In that case it would no longer be the democratic will of the people then, would it?

it would cause a divide in this country the likes of which this country has never seen before, it would be far worse than a few marches on the streets, it will have discredited the very thing that this country holds dear "Democracy".

You wish to subvert democracy because of some thugs? A few fascists on the streets? We can cope with that. We are British and hold democracy dear.

"Countries which cannot change their minds cease to be democracies” : David Davis.

A democratic vote dosen't work the way Jack & Co wants it to work.... it works by way of the majority who voted.

That was then, this is now.
What are you so afraid of? All the Brexiters saying it is the will of the people ...If that were true you guys would be the first demanding another vote.
Support for Brexit has gone. You know it, I know it and that is why you are against having another vote.

Please Jack, don't give me...but, but, they told lies?.....l can't think of any referendum or election where bullsh*t, lies, haven't been used by both sides....its what happens, but we still end up with a democratically represented decision. ...that's democracy working at its best..

Leave not only lied, they broke the law.

Be careful what you wish for remainers....The consequences of your actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.

Right back at you, Keith.

Same old, same old

[Stephen]

This thread should be renamed the Brexit roundabout

[Jack Staff]

This thread should be renamed the Brexit roundabout

I was thinking that.

[Golden Princess]

"second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed,"

But that would be the democratic will of the people. "It works by the way of the majority who voted"

Think the divide in this country would be preferable to to the state of country if there are food shortages, increased immigration from non EU countries, job losses, employment deregulation, inflation, increase in homelessness, decimation of the NHS, brain drain, schools and universities suffering, lack of tax revenues, no funds for benefits and pensions, lack of medicines, restrictions on travel ..... the list is almost endless and I know you are all well aware of the ramifications.

The divide in this country is already apparent and will not be healed by being ostriches. The consequences of YOUR actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.

[towny44]

"second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed,"

But that would be the democratic will of the people. "It works by the way of the majority who voted"

Think the divide in this country would be preferable to to the state of country if there are food shortages, increased immigration from non EU countries, job losses, employment deregulation, inflation, increase in homelessness, decimation of the NHS, brain drain, schools and universities suffering, lack of tax revenues, no funds for benefits and pensions, lack of medicines, restrictions on travel ..... the list is almost endless and I know you are all well aware of the ramifications.

The divide in this country is already apparent and will not be healed by being ostriches. The consequences of YOUR actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.

There is quite a bit of contradictory assumptions that you quote GP. If there are significant job losses, along with some of your other concerns, its highly unlikely the UK would be attractive to immigrants from anywhere. We are far more likely to suffer food shortages due to the dry summer. Just about every member of the govt. has confirmed there will be no reductions in employment regulation. If the economy suffers then there will be some effect on tax revenues, but it would need a massive reduction in GDP for any of your apocalyptical worries to occur.
This thread has allowed forum members to voice their views and concerns, but just recently it has begun to plumb depths of despair that I feel confident the govt, and indeed the EU will ensure do not happen, and I object most strongly to being called an Ostrich and your claim that it will be OUR action that will bring about these damaging problems.

[Jack Staff]

This thread has allowed forum members to voice their views and concerns, but just recently it has begun to plumb depths of despair that I feel confident the govt, and indeed the EU will ensure do not happen, and I object most strongly to being called an Ostrich and your claim that it will be OUR action that will bring about these damaging problems.

Tell me John, whose fault is this Brexit mess if not the Brexiters?

[Golden Princess]

Towny44, many of the words I used, were actually written by Onelife.

And I did not call you an ostrich! In fact, I said
"The divide in this country is already apparent and will not be healed by being ostriches."

I did not say who I thought of as an ostrich! But if that is they way you read it, so be it.

[oldbluefox]

This thread has allowed forum members to voice their views and concerns, but just recently it has begun to plumb depths of despair that I feel confident the govt, and indeed the EU will ensure do not happen, and I object most strongly to being called an Ostrich and your claim that it will be OUR action that will bring about these damaging problems.

Tell me John, whose fault is this Brexit mess if not the Brexiters?

If you were keeping abreast with current affairs, and posts from contributors to this topic that is a question you would not ask.

[Jack Staff]

This thread has allowed forum members to voice their views and concerns, but just recently it has begun to plumb depths of despair that I feel confident the govt, and indeed the EU will ensure do not happen, and I object most strongly to being called an Ostrich and your claim that it will be OUR action that will bring about these damaging problems.

Tell me John, whose fault is this Brexit mess if not the Brexiters?

If you were keeping abreast with current affairs, and posts from contributors to this topic that is a question you would not ask.

Please explain that comment.

[oldbluefox]

It didn't take much Googling to come up with the answer to your question.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/04/wh ... ing-badly/
https://www.opinium.co.uk/brexit-going- ... ing-sides/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 11771.html
Post #1797 also touches on the faults of the 'Brexit mess' as just one of the many posts on this forum.
I feel sure you knew the answer to your question and didn't need me to answer it for you.

[Gill W]

What l can say for certain is that if Jack and the remainers were to get a second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed, it would cause a divide in this country the likes of which this country has never seen before, it would be far worse than a few marches on the streets, it will have discredited the very thing that this country holds dear "Democracy". A democratic vote dosen't work the way Jack & Co wants it to work.... it works by way of the majority who voted.

Please Jack, don't give me...but, but, they told lies?.....l can't think of any referendum or election where bullsh*t, lies, haven't been used by both sides....its what happens, but we still end up with a democratically represented decision. ...that's democracy working at its best..

Be careful what you wish for remainers....The consequences of your actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.

That sounds like Project Fear to me

[Jack Staff]

It didn't take much Googling to come up with the answer to your question.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/04/wh ... ing-badly/
https://www.opinium.co.uk/brexit-going- ... ing-sides/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 11771.html
Post #1797 also touches on the faults of the 'Brexit mess' as just one of the many posts on this forum.
I feel sure you knew the answer to your question and didn't need me to answer it for you.

Yes, I knew the answer. It's Brexiters. No matter who you try and blame it is clearly Brexiters.
That is why there are fewer of them nowadays.

[Onelife]

"second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed,"

But that would be the democratic will of the people. "It works by the way of the majority who voted"

Think the divide in this country would be preferable to to the state of country if there are food shortages, increased immigration from non EU countries, job losses, employment deregulation, inflation, increase in homelessness, decimation of the NHS, brain drain, schools and universities suffering, lack of tax revenues, no funds for benefits and pensions, lack of medicines, restrictions on travel ..... the list is almost endless and I know you are all well aware of the ramifications.

The divide in this country is already apparent and will not be healed by being ostriches. The consequences of YOUR actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.

Hi Princess. Yes it would be the will of the people if the result was reversed but you lost the one where the will of the people voted for Brexit. What makes you think remainers are entitled to another referendum?

Your post is pure speculation and scaremongering....next you'll be telling me ostriches can fly..

Regards

Keith


.

[oldbluefox]

It didn't take much Googling to come up with the answer to your question.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/04/wh ... ing-badly/
https://www.opinium.co.uk/brexit-going- ... ing-sides/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 11771.html
Post #1797 also touches on the faults of the 'Brexit mess' as just one of the many posts on this forum.
I feel sure you knew the answer to your question and didn't need me to answer it for you.

Yes, I knew the answer. It's Brexiters. No matter who you try and blame it is clearly Brexiters.
That is why there are fewer of them nowadays.

[Jack Staff]

It didn't take much Googling to come up with the answer to your question.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/04/wh ... ing-badly/
https://www.opinium.co.uk/brexit-going- ... ing-sides/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 11771.html
Post #1797 also touches on the faults of the 'Brexit mess' as just one of the many posts on this forum.
I feel sure you knew the answer to your question and didn't need me to answer it for you.

Yes, I knew the answer. It's Brexiters. No matter who you try and blame it is clearly Brexiters.
That is why there are fewer of them nowadays.

Because you put a X with the pencil (or did you believe the lies and take your own pen?) in 2016 you obviously think that now qualifies you to disregard the views of the EU, remainers, Parliamentarians, judges, experts or anyone else who disagrees with you.

[towny44]

It didn't take much Googling to come up with the answer to your question.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/04/wh ... ing-badly/
https://www.opinium.co.uk/brexit-going- ... ing-sides/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 11771.html
Post #1797 also touches on the faults of the 'Brexit mess' as just one of the many posts on this forum.
I feel sure you knew the answer to your question and didn't need me to answer it for you.

Yes, I knew the answer. It's Brexiters. No matter who you try and blame it is clearly Brexiters.
That is why there are fewer of them nowadays.

Because you put a X with the pencil (or did you believe the lies and take your own pen?) in 2016 you obviously think that now qualifies you to disregard the views of the EU, remainers, Parliamentarians, judges, experts or anyone else who disagrees with you.

Jack, After Parliament passed the In or Out one time vote, I think it qualifies me to expect that the govt. will honour the referendum result and get us out the EU cesspit as soon possible.

[Onelife]

Yes, I knew the answer. It's Brexiters. No matter who you try and blame it is clearly Brexiters.
That is why there are fewer of them nowadays.

Because you put a X with the pencil (or did you believe the lies and take your own pen?) in 2016 you obviously think that now qualifies you to disregard the views of the EU, remainers, Parliamentarians, judges, experts or anyone else who disagrees with you.

Jack, After Parliament passed the In or Out one time vote, I think it qualifies me to expect that the govt. will honour the referendum result and get us out the EU cesspit as soon possible.

[Jack Staff]

Guys, I get it. You want the UK to leave the EU.
It would very much help your cause however if you could tell us how...
1) UK citizens will benefit from leaving.
2) How the UK could achieve this and stay as the UK.

Don't bother with the roundabout jibes, just treat this as rhetorical.