Brexit

[barney]

So there we have it. No problems whatsoever in the EU

[oldbluefox]

I agree. ECJ judges, Barnier, Juncker, Tusk just to mention a few. How else would they afford their monthly restock of wine in Strasbourg?

Well I never.

At least Barnier, Juncker and Tusk are elected and the judges are appointed by common accord of the governments of the member states, unlike the unelected bureaucrats of the WTO.

That's alright then.

[Jack Staff]

Glad I have convinced you both. I thought it might have been a bit more tricky!

[Manoverboard]

.....

Are you sure about your signature, Jack …. the way it reads ;

The debate about " Brexit is over " so may as well " bar the voting " in another referendum … just saying.

[Jack Staff]

.....

Are you sure about your signature, Jack …. the way it reads ;

The debate about " Brexit is over " so may as well " bar the voting " in another referendum … just saying.

Good point, I shall have a think. ta.

[barney]

So there we have it. No problems whatsoever in the EU

https://www.politico.eu/article/swedish ... -election/

https://www.politico.eu/blogs/berlin-ca ... kel-to-go/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 73421.html


All of these are written by very pro EU news outlets, but cannot ignore the facts.
We are sometimes guilty of thinking that it is only our politicians who are useless.

The times are a changing in Europe, it's just that Jucker et al can't see it yet
At this rate, Macron with his 19% approval rating will be Emperor by default of being last man standing.

[Jack Staff]

So there we have it. No problems whatsoever in the EU

At least it's not as bad as what's going on (or not) at the WTO...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1M621Y

[barney]

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-part ... -election/

https://www.politico.eu/article/budget- ... cant-lose/

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-comm ... rmany-cdu/

https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanue ... -plummets/

https://www.politico.eu/article/poland- ... -brussels/

It is actually. All written by the pro EU Politico EU
The EU is like a swan serenely swimming down the river with all looking well to the outside world, but a slight bit of digging revaels that it just stumbles from one crisis to another.
Maybe Brexit is actually good for the EU as it does love a crisis.

[towny44]

I agree. ECJ judges, Barnier, Juncker, Tusk just to mention a few. How else would they afford their monthly restock of wine in Strasbourg?

Well I never.

At least Barnier, Juncker and Tusk are elected and the judges are appointed by common accord of the governments of the member states, unlike the unelected bureaucrats of the WTO.

They are not elected by the EU electorate Jack, or at least I never saw them on any ballot I completed, so in no way can they be compared to the likes of Trump, Putin or Macron, and although Theresa May is only chosen by the Tory party, at least we get to decide her fate every 5 years or so.

[Jack Staff]

Well I never.

At least Barnier, Juncker and Tusk are elected and the judges are appointed by common accord of the governments of the member states, unlike the unelected bureaucrats of the WTO.

They are not elected by the EU electorate Jack, or at least I never saw them on any ballot I completed, so in no way can they be compared to the likes of Trump, Putin or Macron, and although Theresa May is only chosen by the Tory party, at least we get to decide her fate every 5 years or so.

John, we all know that the electorate are a group of brain dead zombies (members of this forum excepted, of course). They elected Trump. I would cut the Russian electorate some slack, as I'm unsure as to their involvement in Putin's election. These are the people who voted for Boaty McBoatface remember. I know of at least two people who joined Labour (£3 special leadership election membership???) just to vote for Corbyn, for a laugh.

That is why we have a parliament. To stop the stupid people making silly mistakes like Brexit.

You do have a point, in that the people should get their say. The answer is PR, FPTP has failed. If we had PR, UKIP for example, would have had members in the HOC for years, their policies would have been seriously debated and understood for what they were. This Brexit chaos would never have happened.

You seem to be unaware that Juncker was elected 1 November 2014 for a five year term, unlike the unelected bureaucrats of the WTO.

[barney]

He was 'elected' under the Spitzencandidat process.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-comm ... at-to-die/

Read all about it.
I think you will agree is not very democratic after a bit of research.
Before this, jobs were just doled out, so it's an improvement on that.
As in much of the EU's 'democratic' decisions, the EU Parliament is really just there to rubber stamp the decisions of the Commision.
A bit like the old Soviet Polit Bureau.

Every day is an education on here, isn't it

The WTO is not, and has never professed to be a democratic bureaucracy.
Any fool knows that.

[Jack Staff]

He was 'elected' under the Spitzencandidat process.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-comm ... at-to-die/

Read all about it.
I think you will agree is not very democratic after a bit of research.
Before this, jobs were just doled out, so it's an improvement on that.
As in much of the EU's 'democratic' decisions, the EU Parliament is really just there to rubber stamp the decisions of the Commision.
A bit like the old Soviet Polit Bureau.

Every day is an education on here, isn't it

The WTO is not, and has never professed to be a democratic bureaucracy.
Any fool knows that.

Careful Barney, we are getting dangerously close to agreement.
I have never said the EU is perfect, just that it is best option available to us.
We are responsible for many of the people making decisions in the EU. Not all no, just like I have no say in who gets elected in Instow.

What I don't understand is why people keep banging on about the unelected EU, (which we agree, to varying degrees, is not true) and have a preference for what as you state is not, and has never professed to be democratic.

[towny44]

He was 'elected' under the Spitzencandidat process.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-comm ... at-to-die/

Read all about it.
I think you will agree is not very democratic after a bit of research.
Before this, jobs were just doled out, so it's an improvement on that.
As in much of the EU's 'democratic' decisions, the EU Parliament is really just there to rubber stamp the decisions of the Commision.
A bit like the old Soviet Polit Bureau.

Every day is an education on here, isn't it

The WTO is not, and has never professed to be a democratic bureaucracy.
Any fool knows that.

Careful Barney, we are getting dangerously close to agreement.
I have never said the EU is perfect, just that it is best option available to us.
We are responsible for many of the people making decisions in the EU. Not all no, just like I have no say in who gets elected in Instow.

What I don't understand is why people keep banging on about the unelected EU, (which we agree, to varying degrees, is not true) and have a preference for what as you state is not, and has never professed to be democratic.

The answer Jack has to be that we prefer our elected idiots to be British and we just don't like being ruled by foreign ones.

[oldbluefox]

That is why we have a parliament. To stop the stupid people making silly mistakes like Brexit.

How do you know the same stupid people didn't follow Dave and George like sheep and vote to remain? (Except they isn't edicayted like wot you are).

[Jack Staff]

He was 'elected' under the Spitzencandidat process.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-comm ... at-to-die/

Read all about it.
I think you will agree is not very democratic after a bit of research.
Before this, jobs were just doled out, so it's an improvement on that.
As in much of the EU's 'democratic' decisions, the EU Parliament is really just there to rubber stamp the decisions of the Commision.
A bit like the old Soviet Polit Bureau.

Every day is an education on here, isn't it

The WTO is not, and has never professed to be a democratic bureaucracy.
Any fool knows that.

Careful Barney, we are getting dangerously close to agreement.
I have never said the EU is perfect, just that it is best option available to us.
We are responsible for many of the people making decisions in the EU. Not all no, just like I have no say in who gets elected in Instow.

What I don't understand is why people keep banging on about the unelected EU, (which we agree, to varying degrees, is not true) and have a preference for what as you state is not, and has never professed to be democratic.

The answer Jack has to be that we prefer our elected idiots to be British and we just don't like being ruled by foreign ones.

So which elected idiot do want to be minister of food?
Sort of proves that those foreign idiots are actually better than our home grown ones.

[Jack Staff]

That is why we have a parliament. To stop the stupid people making silly mistakes like Brexit.

How do you know the same stupid people didn't follow Dave and George like sheep and vote to remain? (Except they isn't edicayted like wot you are).

The stupid people should never have had a referendum in the first place. We pay for people like Dave and George to take the decisions. We have lives that mean working, knowing how to plumb a house, the quickest route from Bank to Mornington Crescent, the important stuff.
It was Dave and Georges job to spend their working lives arguing about the benefits of Europe, quizzing experts in committees, finding out facts for themselves, so that we don't have to know about trade deals and cliff edges.

[oldbluefox]

It's called democracy Jack. The Tories were voted into power in May 2015 on a manifesto of proposing a referendum. The legal basis for a referendum on EU membership was established by the UK Parliament through the European Union Referendum Act 2015.
The people voted and government passed it through. Nothing to do with stupidity just because you can't accept the outcome.

[towny44]

That is why we have a parliament. To stop the stupid people making silly mistakes like Brexit.

How do you know the same stupid people didn't follow Dave and George like sheep and vote to remain? (Except they isn't edicayted like wot you are).

The stupid people should never have had a referendum in the first place. We pay for people like Dave and George to take the decisions. We have lives that mean working, knowing how to plumb a house, the quickest route from Bank to Mornington Crescent, the important stuff.
It was Dave and Georges job to spend their working lives arguing about the benefits of Europe, quizzing experts in committees, finding out facts for themselves, so that we don't have to know about trade deals and cliff edges.

Jack, you remind me of my eldest Daughter in Law, she is a fervent remainer and could not understand how a majority had voted to leave. Although I understood why she would vote remain, having a senior sales job in the UK arm of an EU company, but she, just like you, could not understand why anyone would vote against being in the EU.
Now for myself, and I believe most of the Brexiteers on this forum and among my friends and relatives, I appreciate why she voted remain, but I am puzzled as to why most, or at least a majority of remainers, just cannot understand why leavers voted as they did, and why they have tried to belittle leavers and categorise them as being of a lower educational and social standing.
Perhaps it's that remainers seem to be closely allied to the me, me, me generation, they don't appear to be selfish and many outwardly profess to be selfless socialists who want everyone to enjoy the lifestyle they have, but I believe at their core they do have a selfish side which manifests itself in this intolerance of anyone elses opinion.......just my opinion of course.

[Jack Staff]

It's called democracy Jack. The Tories were voted into power in May 2015 on a manifesto of proposing a referendum. The legal basis for a referendum on EU membership was established by the UK Parliament through the European Union Referendum Act 2015.
The people voted and government passed it through. Nothing to do with stupidity just because you can't accept the outcome.

If you offered the people a free Ferrari if they voted for it they would.

It is now up to the Brexiters to deliver.

But they can't. All they can offer us is a MOT failed Montego, plus we have have to give up our current car.

[Jack Staff]

That is why we have a parliament. To stop the stupid people making silly mistakes like Brexit.

How do you know the same stupid people didn't follow Dave and George like sheep and vote to remain? (Except they isn't edicayted like wot you are).

The stupid people should never have had a referendum in the first place. We pay for people like Dave and George to take the decisions. We have lives that mean working, knowing how to plumb a house, the quickest route from Bank to Mornington Crescent, the important stuff.
It was Dave and Georges job to spend their working lives arguing about the benefits of Europe, quizzing experts in committees, finding out facts for themselves, so that we don't have to know about trade deals and cliff edges.

Jack, you remind me of my eldest Daughter in Law, she is a fervent remainer and could not understand how a majority had voted to leave. Although I understood why she would vote remain, having a senior sales job in the UK arm of an EU company, but she, just like you, could not understand why anyone would vote against being in the EU.
Now for myself, and I believe most of the Brexiteers on this forum and among my friends and relatives, I appreciate why she voted remain, but I am puzzled as to why most, or at least a majority of remainers, just cannot understand why leavers voted as they did, and why they have tried to belittle leavers and categorise them as being of a lower educational and social standing.
Perhaps it's that remainers seem to be closely allied to the me, me, me generation, they don't appear to be selfish and many outwardly profess to be selfless socialists who want everyone to enjoy the lifestyle they have, but I believe at their core they do have a selfish side which manifests itself in this intolerance of anyone elses opinion.......just my opinion of course.

Selfish to want continued prosperity for all?
Selfish to want cancer treatment and drugs?
Selfish to want my country to continue to exist in its' present form?
Selfish to not want food rationing?

You are correct, I just cannot understand why leavers voted as they did and even after asking many times you have never provided a comprehensible answer. I have up until now not belittled leavers (ok, maybe just a little banter) and categorise them as being of a lower educational and social standing. However, in the face of such mounting evidence, I will no doubt, be forced to change that in future. Just my opinion of course.

[oldbluefox]

It's called democracy Jack. The Tories were voted into power in May 2015 on a manifesto of proposing a referendum. The legal basis for a referendum on EU membership was established by the UK Parliament through the European Union Referendum Act 2015.
The people voted and government passed it through. Nothing to do with stupidity just because you can't accept the outcome.

If you offered the people a free Ferrari if they voted for it they would.

It is now up to the Brexiters to deliver.

But they can't. All they can offer us is a MOT failed Montego, plus we have have to give up our current car.

Nice analogy Jack. Why put up with the Trabant we have been forced to accept when there is a Ferrari on offer? Just because you are happy to hobble along with this self serving, protectionist racket doesn't mean we all have to.

[barney]

"You are correct, I just cannot understand why leavers voted as they did and even after asking many times you have never provided a comprehensible answer"


How about this as an answer Jack.

I no longer wish to be part of the EU.
I was asked my opinion in a democratic vote and gave it by way of voting to leave.

The reasons that I no longer wish to be part of the EU are lengthy and various.

The question on the ballot paper, well, mine anyway, was quite simple.
Do you wish to remain in the EU. ?
Do you wish to leave the EU. ?

Tick box.

It was as easy as that.

Given what we know about the EU's intentions, I'm equally amazed that anybody voted to remain in it, when given the chance.

Obviously some are content to be swallowed up in a Federal Europe, but quite a few more are not.
The EU's expansion policy means that the major contributors, like the UK will pay more and more, just to 'belong to the club'

[barney]

https://www.dw.com/en/eu-announces-ambi ... a-42473497

Just in case you wish to refute the facts Jack

[towny44]

How do you know the same stupid people didn't follow Dave and George like sheep and vote to remain? (Except they isn't edicayted like wot you are).

The stupid people should never have had a referendum in the first place. We pay for people like Dave and George to take the decisions. We have lives that mean working, knowing how to plumb a house, the quickest route from Bank to Mornington Crescent, the important stuff.
It was Dave and Georges job to spend their working lives arguing about the benefits of Europe, quizzing experts in committees, finding out facts for themselves, so that we don't have to know about trade deals and cliff edges.

Jack, you remind me of my eldest Daughter in Law, she is a fervent remainer and could not understand how a majority had voted to leave. Although I understood why she would vote remain, having a senior sales job in the UK arm of an EU company, but she, just like you, could not understand why anyone would vote against being in the EU.
Now for myself, and I believe most of the Brexiteers on this forum and among my friends and relatives, I appreciate why she voted remain, but I am puzzled as to why most, or at least a majority of remainers, just cannot understand why leavers voted as they did, and why they have tried to belittle leavers and categorise them as being of a lower educational and social standing.
Perhaps it's that remainers seem to be closely allied to the me, me, me generation, they don't appear to be selfish and many outwardly profess to be selfless socialists who want everyone to enjoy the lifestyle they have, but I believe at their core they do have a selfish side which manifests itself in this intolerance of anyone elses opinion.......just my opinion of course.

Selfish to want continued prosperity for all?
Selfish to want cancer treatment and drugs?
Selfish to want my country to continue to exist in its' present form?
Selfish to not want food rationing?

You are correct, I just cannot understand why leavers voted as they did and even after asking many times you have never provided a comprehensible answer. I have up until now not belittled leavers (ok, maybe just a little banter) and categorise them as being of a lower educational and social standing. However, in the face of such mounting evidence, I will no doubt, be forced to change that in future. Just my opinion of course.

Jack you seem to believe that quality of life is all about standard of living, which sort of supports my selfish claim, although I do agree it helps.
I do agree that the EU as a force for increasing economic activity has worked well, but certainly not fairly across all 28 member states, and if it were still the EEC I would happily remain part of it. But in its current and I fear in its future guises it is no longer an organisation I want to be in, but I do hope between the UK govt and the EU negotiators that we might end up with a trade agreement that will allow us to continue to prosper, but outside the EU straitjacket.

[oldbluefox]

Jack you seem to believe that quality of life is all about standard of living, which sort of supports my selfish claim, although I do agree it helps.
I do agree that the EU as a force for increasing economic activity has worked well, but certainly not fairly across all 28 member states, and if it were still the EEC I would happily remain part of it. But in its current and I fear in its future guises it is no longer an organisation I want to be in, but I do hope between the UK govt and the EU negotiators that we might end up with a trade agreement that will allow us to continue to prosper, but outside the EU straitjacket.

Selfish to want a more prosperous country?
Selfish to want freedom to trade as an independent country without interference from the EU?
Selfish to want a better standard of living for all irrespective of where you live?
Selfish to want better hospitals so that patients like me don't have to travel to the other side of the country to have their operations or to receive treatment?
Selfish to want a better transport infrastructure with trains which do not persistently break down or leak when it rains, modern roads between towns and cities, easy access to airports etc?
Selfish to want to fund projects in our own country as distinct from propping up others in the EU?
Selfish to want a better future for our country away from the shackles of the EU?
Selfish to want better funding for social care and the genuinely needy?

If this is what the EU had given us over the past 40 years I would have voted Remain. Even your beloved Guardian struggles to support you.