Brexit

[oldbluefox]

I'm not interested in the lies which were told on both sides. The question which was put very simply was:
If the EU was such a wonderful organisation why didn't everybody vote to remain?
Bear in mind we have been in the EU for the past 40 years so there was plenty of experience there.

[Jack Staff]

I'm not interested in the lies which were told on both sides. The question which was put very simply was:
If the EU was such a wonderful organisation why didn't everybody vote to remain?
Bear in mind we have been in the EU for the past 40 years so there was plenty of experience there.

Because they were lied to.
The grass is greener....

Snake oil!

[oldbluefox]

Let's face it Jack. I know and you know too that people voted to leave, not because of any of the stories being put around but because they saw something better away from the EU. They had already made up their minds before the referendum. They saw the EU for what it was: a failed protectionist racket intent on taking a firmer grip on constituent countries leading towards a federal Europe.
I didn't expect you would answer the question because the answer is obvious and no matter how much you danced around it nothing will change that basic truth.

[Jack Staff]

Let's face it Jack. I know and you know too that people voted to leave, not because of any of the stories being put around but because they saw something better away from the EU.

and that is? Seriously what are you hoping will happen?

They had already made up their minds before the referendum. They saw the EU for what it was: a failed protectionist racket intent on taking a firmer grip on constituent countries leading towards a federal Europe.

Please don't tell me you believe this.

I didn't expect you would answer the question because the answer is obvious and no matter how much you danced around it nothing will change that basic truth.

We knew what the EU was/is. My answer was the people were lied to. Watch the video again.
Any remain lies were worthless because we knew what the EU was.

Now tell us about that obvious basic truth of which you speak.

[oldbluefox]

Two truths Jack
1. People saw the EU for what it is: a failed protectionist racket intent on taking a firmer grip on constituent countries leading towards a federal Europe.
2. A referendum was held. You lost.

[oldbluefox]

How will the EU cope without Britain?

and an X rated article for Jack.
Apparently you can get 2/1 on Italy to exit next. (William Hill)

[Jack Staff]

Two truths Jack

No obvious basic truth then?

1. People saw the EU for what it is: a failed protectionist racket intent on taking a firmer grip on constituent countries leading towards a federal Europe.

Half the people. Protectionist racket? Federal Europe? We had a veto remember, until you threw it away.

2. A referendum was held. You lost.

And what did you win exactly? At the moment your 'winnings' are only one half of England.
Well done.

[Jack Staff]

How will the EU cope without Britain?

Yes, I remember that 18 months ago it may have been possible for some to see a positive end to Brexit. Just a shame our government has used the intervening time just to argue amongst themselves. Time has pretty much run out for them and Brexit now.

[oldbluefox]

Outcomes for the EU remain the same and despite the abysmal dithering by our government I believe a deal will be struck, albeit at the last hour. Realistically time has run out for a re-run of the referendum but you can live in (forlorn) hope.

[Jack Staff]

Outcomes for the EU remain the same and despite the abysmal dithering by our government I believe a deal will be struck, albeit at the last hour. Realistically time has run out for a re-run of the referendum but you can live in (forlorn) hope.

It's only Brexiters that have to use belief and hope.

[oldbluefox]

Quite right Jack. Any hope and belief you may have had disappeared long ago hence:
forlorn: adjective
(of an aim or endeavour) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled.
"a forlorn attempt to escape"
synonyms: hopeless, with no chance of success, beyond hope

[johnds]

Jack

Humour me with your indepth knowledge of the EU

Let's assume that however implausible it may seem Mrs May agrees a deal with Mr Barnier

Let's also assume that perhaps even more implauslibly Mrs May obtains the consent of the UK parliament

Is it not the case that then ALL 27 remaining nations have to sign up to the deal.

So what if a tiny little member, say Malta decides that it doesnt like the deal for some reason and won't sign up.

More possibly what if the Spanish government won't sign up because the deal doesn't including handing over control of Gibraltar.

What happens then? Is the whole deal stuffed and we leave with no deal ?
What are the chances that all 27 will agree ?

Is it right that tiny Malta has in effect equal say with Germany ?

I don't know the answer to any of this, but I'm sure you can enlighten me.

[towny44]

Quite right Jack. Any hope and belief you may have had disappeared long ago hence:
forlorn: adjective
(of an aim or endeavour) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled.
"a forlorn attempt to escape"
synonyms: hopeless, with no chance of success, beyond hope

Foxy why are you bothering with this discussion with Jack, don't you realise he is an EU AI computer programmed to keep responding to our posts with ever more puerile replies solely designed to annoy us?

[barney]

After watching Raab's speech on the news, I think that he has come of age as a politician.
A future Tory leader.
I wouldn't be too shocked.
after all, he's not up against much.

[Jack Staff]

Jack

Humour me with your indepth knowledge of the EU

Let's assume that however implausible it may seem Mrs May agrees a deal with Mr Barnier

Let's also assume that perhaps even more implauslibly Mrs May obtains the consent of the UK parliament

Is it not the case that then ALL 27 remaining nations have to sign up to the deal.

So what if a tiny little member, say Malta decides that it doesnt like the deal for some reason and won't sign up.

More possibly what if the Spanish government won't sign up because the deal doesn't including handing over control of Gibraltar.

What happens then? Is the whole deal stuffed and we leave with no deal ?
What are the chances that all 27 will agree ?

Is it right that tiny Malta has in effect equal say with Germany ?

I don't know the answer to any of this, but I'm sure you can enlighten me.

John, thank you for the compliment, but I knew no more than any Joe Public three years ago. Since then the remain community has come together so I can now rely on the knowledge of certain MP's, MEP's, Lords, lawyers, doctors, trade deal negotiators and experts in their respective fields.
Chequers is dead, Barnier will have none of it. The EU told us that years ago. We can complain as much as we want, but we knew this at the start.
Parliament will have none of it. It pleases nobody.
But ok, in a parallel universe, the deal goes to the 27. For it to pass all have to sign up. If Malta and/or Spain don't sign, Britain is crushed. We crash out with no trade deals AT ALL, around the globe, nothing. We get desperate and sign any trade deal with anyone on far worse terms than before. A feeding frenzy with the UK ripped apart. So that hopefully won't happen.
There will be a conference, where Trezza isn't invited. The 27 will agree (on something that is primarily concerned, obviously, with the future of the EU), it will be up to the British at that point to take it or leave it.
Yes, it is right that tiny Malta has in effect an equal say with Germany. We remember what happened last time Germany got to big for it's boots. But of course diplomacy, politics and things like common sense come into play at the meetings Trezza doesn't go to. So Malta doesn't really have an equal say, but proportional. Strangely, we have about the biggest say in the EU and on top of that we have our veto, yet we are still not happy.

Ultimately, I hope a deal will be arrived at where we can get all the benefits of the EU, with restrictions on the freedom of movement.
It's just a shame we have to go through all this destruction of our country to get to a place that Trezza could have created years ago, but at least she (her successor probably) will be able to claim a victory to keep the Quitters happy.

[Ray Scully]

After watching Raab's speech on the news, I think that he has come of age as a politician.
A future Tory leader.
I wouldn't be too shocked.
after all, he's not up against much.

Anyone but that snake oil salesman Johnson

[johnds]

For it to pass all have to sign up. If Malta and/or Spain don't sign, Britain is crushed. We crash out with no trade deals

And so do the EU

I'm not sure where the expression "crash out" comes from. It means leave.

[Jack Staff]

For it to pass all have to sign up. If Malta and/or Spain don't sign, Britain is crushed. We crash out with no trade deals

And so do the EU

I'm not sure where the expression "crash out" comes from. It means leave.

I don't think you have grasped he situation.
The EU will lose trade with us too, yes. But they still have the EU trade deals with all the various countries around the world.
We will not.
We will have nothing. NOTHING.

Leave (crash out) means isolation.

[towny44]

For it to pass all have to sign up. If Malta and/or Spain don't sign, Britain is crushed. We crash out with no trade deals

And so do the EU

I'm not sure where the expression "crash out" comes from. It means leave.

I don't think you have grasped he situation.
The EU will lose trade with us too, yes. But they still have the EU trade deals with all the various countries around the world.
We will not.
We will have nothing. NOTHING.

Leave (crash out) means isolation.

Jack, since we normally run a huge trade deficit don't you think that all the countries that currently export to us will be desperate to tie up deals to ensure they can still sell to us. I am not certain but I suspect we are one of Korea's top European markets for cars and electronic goods, so we should at least be able to copy and paste the current EU trade deal with them if not even better, plus there will be a hell of a lot of other countries in the same boat.
Stop being so negative about everything, there is no such thing as a problem in business, just new opportunities.

[Ray Scully]

Oh John if it was only that simple

For a taste of how post-Brexit Britain will fare in trade negotiations, one need look no further than the position South Korea has taken with regards to the rollover of the EU-Korea free trade agreement (FTA) during the post-Brexit transition period, which starts in little over a year.
In short, Seoul has warned that the FTA will not automatically apply to the UK beyond March 2019, and has asked for concessions from London in return. If this is the stance that the export-oriented, trade-first country is taking over what should be an uncontroversial issue – for the UK will technically remain part of the EU during the transition period – what will be its position during post-Brexit trade negotiations?
From a Korean perspective, there are three key issues in any future trade negotiation with the UK. All of them are problematic for London and its fledgeling International Trade department.

[barney]

We'll see when the chips are down Ray.

The UK is a major customer of South Korea.
We probably couldn't exactly replicate the EU deal, but could still agree a deal that is beneficial to both parties.
That is, zero tariffs, both ways.

The golden rule is that whoever has the gold makes the rules.

By the way, I'm no Boris Johnson fan, as you have probably noticed by previous posts, but his speech today was really invigorating.
What a shame that our PM or the leader of the opposition don't have the same pulling power to the general public.

The next Tory leader, I think.

[Ray Scully]

By the way, I'm no Boris Johnson fan, as you have probably noticed by previous posts, but his speech today was really invigorating.
What a shame that our PM or the leader of the opposition don't have the same pulling power to the general public.

The next Tory leader, I think.

Johnson, Snake Oil Salesman Barney, but to the credit of Snake Oil Salesmen they were very convincing.

[barney]

Well he certainly was Ray, and I sat through the entire speech.

He has the charisma that the others sadly lack.

He did neatly skirt around the RoI/ NI situation with reference to the EU's insistence on a hard border, should the UK government not capitulate to their demands.

That is now irrelevant as the DUP have publicly said that if May agrees to separate NI from the rest of the UK, they will withdraw support and bring down the Government.
So, that's cleared that one up, hasn't it.

The only 'hard border' is in the EU regulations.
It's their bucket and their hole.
It's up to them to fix it.

[Kenmo1]

He has the charisma that the others sadly lack.

If that is charisma, I'm really glad I haven't got it. I think he is a serial liar and the most two-faced person in politics. He is only interested in himself and becoming PM by fair means or foul. I wouldn't trust him at all. I just wish someone would explain to me what it is they see in him. I'm not sure who is worse - Trump or Boris.

Maureen.

[Ray Scully]

Barney without the Brexit Saga, I have found Johnson a self-serving duplicitous individual. He does appear though to have his fans. but then, so does Roy Chubby Brown.