Brexit

[oldbluefox]

Where is the link Jack?

It is the document you quoted. Your link.
Did you not read it before you posted?

So we disregard the rest of the text and whatever May and successive ministers have said? If your ship was sinking you'd look for a straw to cling to.

[Jack Staff]

Where is the link Jack?

It is the document you quoted. Your link.
Did you not read it before you posted?

So we disregard the rest of the text and whatever May and successive ministers have said? If your ship was sinking you'd look for a straw to cling to.

It makes no odds what has been said. It is what is going to be said in the next couple of weeks that counts.
At present there is NOTHING in place to stop that SNP MP being completely correct in worrying about his wife (and kids?) being thrown out of the life she has made in our country. Absolutely heartless.

[towny44]

Where is the link Jack?

It is the document you quoted. Your link.
Did you not read it before you posted?

So we disregard the rest of the text and whatever May and successive ministers have said? If your ship was sinking you'd look for a straw to cling to.

It makes no odds what has been said. It is what is going to be said in the next couple of weeks that counts.
At present there is NOTHING in place to stop that SNP MP being completely correct in worrying about his wife (and kids?) being thrown out of the life she has made in our country. Absolutely heartless.

What you are suggesting goes against every comment made by TM and many of her ministers, if what you say is not project fear, then what is it?

[oldbluefox]

I find that stories such as this which are perpetrated by the Remain camp are heartless and immoral and contrary to everything TM and her ministers have said right from the outset. It's a disgrace.
This is what TM said:
"EU citizens who have made their lives in the UK have made a huge contribution to our country. And we want them and their families to stay. I couldn’t be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay".

[Jack Staff]

I find that stories such as this which are perpetrated by the Remain camp are heartless and immoral and contrary to everything TM and her ministers have said right from the outset. It's a disgrace.
This is what TM said:
"EU citizens who have made their lives in the UK have made a huge contribution to our country. And we want them and their families to stay. I couldn’t be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay".

Guys! Guys! Don't have a go at me!
This is simply what is happening.
All that you say is part of the 95% of 'the deal' that has been agreed.
But we know nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
The Titanic got 95% of the way to New York.
There are members of the cabinet (and even members of this forum) publicly advocating NO DEAL.
So I say again...
"At present there is NOTHING in place to stop that SNP MP being completely correct in worrying about his wife (and kids?) being thrown out of the life she has made in our country. Absolutely heartless."

[oldbluefox]

But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.

[Jack Staff]

But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.

Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.

[towny44]

But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.

Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.

Jack, I doubt your claim is anywhere near true, yet another project fear claim to try and spread doubt and concern amongst EU citizen living in the UK, you really should be ashamed of yourself.

[Jack Staff]

But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.

Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.

Jack, I doubt your claim is anywhere near true, yet another project fear claim to try and spread doubt and concern amongst EU citizen living in the UK, you really should be ashamed of yourself.

You obviously have no idea of what is going on.

[oldbluefox]

But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.

Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.

Whoops!
BBC News:
"The number of EU citizens leaving the UK is at its highest level for a decade with 130,000 emigrating in the year to September, figures show.
But far more EU nationals (220,000) moved to the UK in the same period, the Office for National Statistics found".
You were half right Jack. You just forgot the other half. In Remainer talk just a few extra came to the UK. The Leavers speak says there was a net gain of 90,000. It doesn't sound like lack of trust or faith if they are still coming.
Btw Bliar said there would be just 13000. p***ock!!!

[Jack Staff]

Whoops!
BBC News:
"The number of EU citizens leaving the UK is at its highest level for a decade with 130,000 emigrating in the year to September, figures show.
But far more EU nationals (220,000) moved to the UK in the same period, the Office for National Statistics found".
You were half right Jack. You just forgot the other half. In Remainer talk just a few extra came to the UK. The Leavers speak says there was a net gain of 90,000. It doesn't sound like lack of trust or faith if they are still coming.
Btw Bliar said there would be just 13000. p***ock!!!

The ones that are leaving are husbands, wives of families of British children.
They are the settled ones with good jobs, doctors, nurses, architects,...
But lets have a laugh about it.
It's only numbers, not your family. So that's alright.

[Mervyn and Trish]

You know that for a fact Jack?

[Jack Staff]

You know that for a fact Jack?

Yes

[Mervyn and Trish]

You know them all.personally?

[towny44]

Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?

[Jack Staff]

You know them all.personally?

Of course not. But for the last two and a half years the 'Bresistance' has grown exponentially. Being an active member, I have many Facecloth friends for example, a high proportion of which are either people directly affected (foreigners to you) or married to them. Most of which I have never met in person, but have seen their baby pictures, their Halloween costumes, their pets being silly. I feel I know them and I certainly feel for them.
I do know my next door neighbours sons' wife (who live together, with their grandson, big house). She is Latvian. Her father in law, a Brexiter, is distraught at what the future holds.
My best mate, of decades, is considering starting a hotel in Poland, so that he can carry on his life with is wife.
So no, I don't know them all personally. I don't have to to feel compassion for them and shame for what my country is doing.

[Jack Staff]

Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?

And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post.

[oldbluefox]

Much as I have tried, I find it very difficult to defend you Jack. You made numerous statements which were half truths where evidence showed the opposite to be true or statements based not on evidence but the relatively small circle of (Remainer) friends who are not necessarily representative of the whole. You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous. To try to blame lack of trust and faith as the reason for 130000 EU citizens leaving the UK is naive in the extreme especially when you ignore the fact that 220000 were coming. I noted you were happy to adopt sarcasm in your response to me, which I was happy to ignore. If you are going to dish it out then you should not call foul if it comes back at you.

"And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post".
So you have evidence for this Jack? People will come and go from a forum for many and varied reasons so a sweeping statement such as this is not true. I appreciate some members do not post on the Brexit topic for their own reasons. It is an emotive subject but to say the forum is dying because of posts on the Brexit topic whilst ignoring other reasons is dubious at best.

[Gill W]

What IS the reason?

Not really sure why you asked the question or why the emphasis in your reply to me. I think barney answered this very succinctly in his post which I have copied for you:
"As far as I'm concerned, the elephant in the room is what the EU intends to become, and that is never discussed by either side.
At the moment, it's speculation as is almost all of the Remain arguments, but the EU intentions have been very widely publicized.
To pretend that the EU will stay the same is like trying to pretend that it it what we joined all of those years ago.
To gauge current opinion depends entirely on what question you ask.
How about
Leave the EU and determine our own future
or
Remain in the EU, be ruled by Brussels and continue to pay in even increasing amounts of tax payers money while collaborating in robbing eastern Europe of the youngest and brightest people and admitting more and more supplicant poor counties looking for hand outs.
Has a slightly different ring to it ?
If the UK does not take this opportunity now, it will be buried for ever and our descendants will question why we did not leave when we had the chance".

It was an open question to anybody who cared to answer, but as you had added your own option, it just so happened it appeared in my answer to you.

Barney's reply doesn't help at all. I was wondering why we need to be talking about Federalism at all at this point. We are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019, so it's immaterial to us what the EU's plans are, as we won't be part of the EU any more.

I was speculating why the Brexit contingent feel the need to carry on up this particular avenue and these are my suggestions for a reason

a) still trying to justify their vote. (there's no need for this, we are beyond that stage now.)
b) Trying to get Remainers round to their way of thinking. (we are also beyond that stage, as views are entrenched)
c) using this as a displacement activity, to try and not think about the UK being in a crisis situation)

We've now gone round in a complete circle, and I'm still none the wiser

Gill, the remain contingent on here keep questioning why the brexiteers voted to leave your cosy club, which is why we keep telling you its because we did not want to go down the EU federal route. And regardless of how many times you question why, the answer will remain the same, which is why we rarely ask you why you want to stay in the club.

The remain contingent, as you call it, numbers about 4 regular posters on this forum. I don’t think any of the Remainers are constantly questioning Leavers about their vote. As I’ve been saying, we’re beyond that now, I think the narrative should be about what is happening now.

I’m not even sure what you mean by ‘my cosy club’. As I said a few days ago, up until about 3 yrs ago, I rarely thought about the EU. When the referendum came round, I weighed up the options, and decided that remaining would be the best option, mainly because I felt that it would provide more opportunities for young people. If the government wasn’t making such a complete pigs ear of the withdrawal and we were where we should be at this point - i.e. a withdrawal agreement agreed that at the very least didn’t leave us worse off- I wouldn’t even be posting on this subject.

I only started posting in the summer because I could see that chaos was unfolding and I wanted to talk about it - not because I’m a EU headbanger.

[Gill W]

Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?

And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post.

Hear hear.

The combative tone of postings wears you down after a while.

Not to mention the accusations of ‘ranting’.

I also find if outrageous that I’m expected to pass judgement on another forum member.

However, I was going to comment on this subject, so I will post what I planned to say.

In spite of Theresa May’s reassurances, I have observed that people from other EU countries that have settled here are becoming very anxious and unhappy.

The reasons seem to be

A) uncertaincy - just 4 and a half months to go, and they have no idea what system will be in place to allow them to carry on living here

b) Lack of trust in the Government to keep its promises

C) they no longer feel welcome here. In the last couple of years they report an increase in random abuse and general nastiness when they are out and about. Sometimes it’s been very intimidating.

How have I come to this conclusion. Good old Twitter of course. It gives you a feel of what’s happening out there. It’s not just isolated comment, it seems to be more than that.

I have no idea of figures regarding people who’ve upped sticks left the U.K.

What I would say, is perhaps people should show a bit of empathy and put themselves in the shoes of someone who’s lived here for 40 yrs, married a British person and has British children, now everything seems uncertain and they are even facing hostility. Horrible situation to be in.

Although social media is sneered at on this forum, it gives us a wider look at society than our own narrow lives. I joined Twitter just after the Referendum and feel that I am much better informed than I would be otherwise.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?

And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post.

Foxy has aready answered this very eloguently but I'll add my bit anyway. I might not have put it so strongly as John but I understand why he did so.

I don't know how many EU nationals you actually know Jack, maybe 10, maybe 100, maybe more but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are, their social class, their jobs, their family circumstances, their motivation.

It is the same as the way you seem to know why some of us voted to leave, despite us telling you different frequently. Your assumption you are right and we are idiots. Your assumption that those who abstained in the vote were all on your side or that because they exercised their democratic right to not vote that the outcome is invalid.

Unless there is something you're not telling us you're not in the cabinet nor in the negotiating room, so you know exactly the same as the rest of us about the way it's going or the way it will conclude. Which at the moment is the square root of bu@@er all. It never was going to be easy, I never said nor believed it would be, and it isn't, but let's wait till we see the deal or not before we announce what it is and declare the end of the civilised world.

I too find you hugely frustrating Jack. I accept your democratic right to vote the way you did and to hold the views you do. They are as valid as mine, but no more so. For goodness sake stop pretending you know all the answers and we don't. Because it is true we don't. And neither do you.

As an aside in the last few days I see I have something in common with Gill. We may differ substantially in our overall view but she told us a few posts back that she was convinced to vote remain by the leave campaign. I was convinced to vote leave by the remain campaign. Maybe that means that if they'd just published the referendum question and both shut up the outcome would have been different.

[Stephen]

It'll all pan out in the end. What ever happens, good or not so good we'll deal with it, we always do.

[Golden Princess]

I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.

[Jack Staff]

You know them all.personally?

Of course not.
...
So no, I don't know them all personally.

You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous.

.. but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are,

I think it is outrageous and preposterous to suggest I said that, when evidence clearly shows otherwise.

[Jack Staff]

I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.

But it's what the Brexiters won.