Brexit

[Manoverboard]

I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.

Many people find it difficult to cope with change but unfortunately for them change is what we are going to get, it will not be going away.

So GP …. what are ' your ' concerns, what are these ' implications ' that will hit you and your family the hardest ?

For the wider audience … as a polite discussion please rather than an argument about fighting for one's corner.

[barney]

I sympathise with Golden Princess's concerns even if I don't agree with them.

Some do find it very difficult to deal with change but by the fact that the majority did vote for change, we will have to get used to it.
There would have been a massive amount of change even if the result had gone the other way.
Fromm the research that I've done about the future of The European Union, I suspect that the UK has dodged a bullet.
I expect that the French, Germans and Italians will be chuffed to punch when tens of thousands of Albanians rock up on there shores, just to add to the migrant crisis.
Business will of course love it.
More poor folk to exploit.

[david63]

There is, and always will be, change - it is the way of the world. If there was to be a General Election and Labour were to gain power there most definitely will be change which, if they carry out the things that they are talking about, will make Brexit appear to be a "non event".

As far as Brexit is concerned I look at more as evolution than change.

[towny44]

It does seem that the majority of concerns are what might happen in the event that there is no deal, and the more vociferous remainers want to push this scenario to highlight the possible chaos this may cause.
To be honest I never viewed this as a likely outcome when I chose to vote leave, simply because lots of countries have trade deals with the EU, and cherry picking apart, I assumed that negotiations would lead to a reasonable trade deal; even if it was not as broad reaching as the one we enjoy at present.
TBH I did not see the GFA as being the stumbling block that it has become, and I suspect not many voters did.
Also, despite our special status of never being forced to join the Euro, I considered that the upheavals it had caused the ECB with the Greek and Irish collapse, and the likely future issues with Italy, Spain, Portugal etc, then it was probable that the EU would need to divert more and more resources to maintaining the stability of the Euro, and those countries outside it would be increasingly marginalised, but needing to increase their contributions to support the burgeoning bureaucracy.
On top of this the proclaimed progress to an even more Federal vision of a European super state was totally unpalatable to me, and those issues were the main reasons I voted leave.
It would be interesting to know if our remainers considered the referendum choice in the same detail, or just succumbed to project fear, and chose the easy option?

PS I apologise to Jack if my sarcastic remarks offended him, but I always thought he was capable of giving as good as he got.

[Mervyn and Trish]

You know them all.personally?

Of course not.
...
So no, I don't know them all personally.

You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous.

.. but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are,

I think it is outrageous and preposterous to suggest I said that, when evidence clearly shows otherwise.

Sorry Jack but I refer you to your post 2761 in which you detailed who the 120,000 were who were leaving. You did not make clear that you were only referring to a handful of them. Your post is there to see.

[Gill W]

I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.

I completely understand what you are saying, and I think your comments are being misconstrued by other forum members as 'fear of change'.

I want to get on with my life, in a sensible country, that is not insisting on shooting itself in the foot. I don't want to have to deal, or cope, or put my back to the wall, or keep a stiff upper lip, or invoke the Dunkirk spirit, for a crisis that is of our own making and will leave us in a worse position than we are now.

[Gill W]

It does seem that the majority of concerns are what might happen in the event that there is no deal, and the more vociferous remainers want to push this scenario to highlight the possible chaos this may cause.
To be honest I never viewed this as a likely outcome when I chose to vote leave, simply because lots of countries have trade deals with the EU, and cherry picking apart, I assumed that negotiations would lead to a reasonable trade deal; even if it was not as broad reaching as the one we enjoy at present.
TBH I did not see the GFA as being the stumbling block that it has become, and I suspect not many voters did.
Also, despite our special status of never being forced to join the Euro, I considered that the upheavals it had caused the ECB with the Greek and Irish collapse, and the likely future issues with Italy, Spain, Portugal etc, then it was probable that the EU would need to divert more and more resources to maintaining the stability of the Euro, and those countries outside it would be increasingly marginalised, but needing to increase their contributions to support the burgeoning bureaucracy.
On top of this the proclaimed progress to an even more Federal vision of a European super state was totally unpalatable to me, and those issues were the main reasons I voted leave.
It would be interesting to know if our remainers considered the referendum choice in the same detail, or just succumbed to project fear, and chose the easy option?

PS I apologise to Jack if my sarcastic remarks offended him, but I always thought he was capable of giving as good as he got.

I certainly do not want to push the no deal scenario, because I do not want chaos. However, I think everybody now needs to face up to this possibility. Each week, we are told it's a crunch week, and a deal is imminent. Then there's a bit of hot air from Raab or Davies, a cabinet meeting where they look blankly at each other for a while, and nothing substantive happens. Repeat the cycle again the following week. Now that May is in Belgium for for the Armistice commemorations, nothing will happen this week, that's for sure. We are rapidly running out of road, with nothing achieved.

I have a friend nicknamed Frances Two Brains (because her intelligence is off the scale), who was speaking about the problems that NI could cause, this was before the referendum. However, I agree that most people wouldn't have known about this. But it was unforgiveable for Article 50 to be triggered so hastilly without the full impact of this action being investigated.

I've already said (twice) my reasons for my vote, based on my own research and conclusions. I guarantee you, 'Project Fear' played no part in my vote. Do we still have to talk about 'Project Fear',it is so 2016, and looks like it was Project Mildly Pessimistic, anyway.

[Manoverboard]

I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.

I completely understand what you are saying, and I think your comments are being misconstrued by other forum members as 'fear of change'.

I want to get on with my life, in a sensible country, that is not insisting on shooting itself in the foot. I don't want to have to deal, or cope, or put my back to the wall, or keep a stiff upper lip, or invoke the Dunkirk spirit, for a crisis that is of our own making and will leave us in a worse position than we are now.

Well I don't and that is part of the reason why I invited GP to explain her fears, your explanation may be correct but I will await her own.

Your explanation regarding your good self would certainly explain the stance you have been taking on this Topic. I didn't see it coming but only because I have absolutely no fears of the future after Brexit here in the UK. There will be difficulties certainly but God knows we, well me, have lived through a number of those along the way.

How can post Brexit be as bad as the Union strife of the 70s, the rampant inflation with mortgage rates in the region of 20% plus the concerns of the Cold War with the Russians during that period ?

What on earth are you expecting ?

[Jack Staff]

You know them all.personally?

Of course not.
...
So no, I don't know them all personally.

You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous.

.. but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are,

I think it is outrageous and preposterous to suggest I said that, when evidence clearly shows otherwise.

Sorry Jack but I refer you to your post 2761 in which you detailed who the 120,000 were who were leaving. You did not make clear that you were only referring to a handful of them. Your post is there to see.

Sorry Merv but I refer you to your post 2764 in which you asked me to clarify and my reply post 2766. Yet you still went on to accuse me in your post 2771. It's all there, you even re quote it yourself in post 2780.
I thought you, at least, were better than this.

[Jack Staff]

Transport minister Jo Johnson has quit the government, calling for the public to have a fresh say on Brexit.

The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the UK was "barrelling towards an incoherent Brexit that is going to leave us trapped in a subordinate relationship to the EU".

It was "imperative" to "go back to the people and check they are content to proceed on this extraordinary basis".

He voted to remain in the EU while his brother was a leading Brexiteer.

His brother, who quit as foreign secretary in July, praised his decision, saying they were "united in dismay" at the PM's handling of the negotiations.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403

[Manoverboard]

Give it a rest Jack, we are trying to have a sensible discussion here without pointless point scoring … and Yes I do realise that you were responding to Merv who was responding to you ( etc ) while we were still in concentric circle mode.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Regards MobyMod

[Gill W]

I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.

I completely understand what you are saying, and I think your comments are being misconstrued by other forum members as 'fear of change'.

I want to get on with my life, in a sensible country, that is not insisting on shooting itself in the foot. I don't want to have to deal, or cope, or put my back to the wall, or keep a stiff upper lip, or invoke the Dunkirk spirit, for a crisis that is of our own making and will leave us in a worse position than we are now.

Well I don't and that is part of the reason why I invited GP to explain her fears, your explanation may be correct but I will await her own.

Your explanation regarding your good self would certainly explain the stance you have been taking on this Topic. I didn't see it coming but only because I have absolutely no fears of the future after Brexit here in the UK. There will be difficulties certainly but God knows we, well me, have lived through a number of those along the way.

How can post Brexit be as bad as the Union strife of the 70s, the rampant inflation with mortgage rates in the region of 20% plus the concerns of the Cold War with the Russians during that period ?

What on earth are you expecting ?

In a deal situation - not so much disruption to daily life, but the whole thing will drag on for ever, as they carry on at a snails pace trying to agree trade deals, trying to resolve NI so the 'backstop' won't be needed. Then when we get to the end of 2020 and they still haven't got their act together, facing a further cliff end scenario. Economic outlook will remain uncertain for several years until everything is resolved.

A no deal situation - who knows what will happen. We've never torn up all our trade deals before, or jumped out of an efficient customs system with nothing to replace it, or removed ourselves from all the European agencies we are part of, or thrown out the Good Friday agreement, or felt the need for stockpiling medicines in peacetime.

All we can do is hope for the best, but monitor the situation, and make our own individual plans for the worst.

You say you have no fears, so clearly you will not be making contingency plans. Hope it works out for you and you don't get any nasty shocks

[Gill W]

Transport minister Jo Johnson has quit the government, calling for the public to have a fresh say on Brexit.

The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the UK was "barrelling towards an incoherent Brexit that is going to leave us trapped in a subordinate relationship to the EU".

It was "imperative" to "go back to the people and check they are content to proceed on this extraordinary basis".

He voted to remain in the EU while his brother was a leading Brexiteer.

His brother, who quit as foreign secretary in July, praised his decision, saying they were "united in dismay" at the PM's handling of the negotiations.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403

And I thought it was going to be a quiet news day!

[Manoverboard]

What on earth are you expecting ?

In a deal situation - not so much disruption to daily life, but the whole thing will drag on for ever, as they carry on at a snails pace trying to agree trade deals, trying to resolve NI so the 'backstop' won't be needed. Then when we get to the end of 2020 and they still haven't got their act together, facing a further cliff end scenario. Economic outlook will remain uncertain for several years until everything is resolved.

A no deal situation - who knows what will happen. We've never torn up all our trade deals before, or jumped out of an efficient customs system with nothing to replace it, or removed ourselves from all the European agencies we are part of, or thrown out the Good Friday agreement, or felt the need for stockpiling medicines in peacetime.

All we can do is hope for the best, but monitor the situation, and make our own individual plans for the worst.

You say you have no fears, so clearly you will not be making contingency plans. Hope it works out for you and you don't get any nasty shocks

Thank you Gill, yours is without doubt one of the more positive postings on the Topic for some time.

I agree with you regarding ' a deal ' situation but I am probably more optimistic than you insomuch that I believe the EU Countries will be putting considerable pressure on their negotiators long before the end of 2020. They have more to lose than we do basically and it will not be allowed to drag on for ever.

No deal …. I am yet to be convinced that will be the end result but yes it will doubtless result in considerable difficulties.

My ideal contingency Plan is for the moderate Labour Party MPs to vote with the Tories to achieve a deal rather than attempting to bring down TM, there will be plenty of time for that objective at a later date. It would be a show of unity and serve them well in the future … if they have the wisdom to do it of course. No way, at this juncture, will we be stockpiling anything but as the end of 2020 approaches and if we are no further forward as you predict then maybe I will need to change my mind ... we are however still in 2018 and it's far too early for me to panic.




.

[Gill W]

I disagree that EU has more to lose than us. They are a massive trading block. We are just one country. It would do more damage to us than them if a trade deal wasn’t agreed.

I think it will all depend on the nature of the withdrawal deal, when it’s revealed, and how Labour whip their MPS to vote. Not to mention how DUP votes and rebel Conservatives. Nothing is certain

May must reveal her plan soon - she’s running out of time and this continuous drifting is very damaging

PS the thought of still having this conversation in November 2020, is not a good one!

[Gill W]

"To present the nation with a choice between two deeply unattractive outcomes, vassalage and chaos, is a failure of British statecraft on a scale unseen since the Suez crisis."

Jo Johnson

[barney]

Joe Boris and I all agree that the Pm has been pretty useless since day one.

[Ray Scully]

Joe Boris and I all agree that the Pm has been pretty useless since day one.

The PM cannot be blamed for the political classes chasing self-interest at any cost to the people they are there to serve.

[Jack Staff]

Joe Boris and I all agree that the Pm has been pretty useless since day one.

The PM cannot be blamed for the political classes chasing self-interest at any cost to the people they are there to serve.

Theresa is a great politician, who is uniting the country. Who else could get Barney and myself to agree?
Also, she can not be blamed for being out of depth, when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.

[johnds]

when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.

This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful

[Jack Staff]

when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.

This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful

It's a habit I picked up here. So many posts about Mrs. Krankie etc. I was just doing it to fit in.

[towny44]

when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.

This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful

It's a habit I picked up here. So many posts about Mrs. Krankie etc. I was just doing it to fit in.

Why is it that you can never accept responsibility for your comments Jack.

[Jack Staff]

when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.

This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful

It's a habit I picked up here. So many posts about Mrs. Krankie etc. I was just doing it to fit in.

Why is it that you can never accept responsibility for your comments Jack.

?

[Onelife]

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vo ... ortunities


If the link is correct then it is fair to assume  that the rallying cry of ..."it can't get any worse, let's vote for change" was the thing that tipped the balace in favour of leave...

 Where Brexit takes this country is yet to be decided but if Theresa May is true to her word and strives for a fairer society in which the inequality gap is tackled properly (which l believe under her leadership it will) then Brexit will be the catalyst from which we can open doors to greater economic opportunities and better lives for all.

Lest we never forget it is those who have to endure the hardest sacrifices that hold the power to shape our destiny.

[barney]

A very interesting and honest article.
Good find !