Brexit

[Gill W]

Re post #2951. After the referendum I accepted the result ….

A wonderful deal was never going to be on the cards regardless of who said what to influence the outcome of the referendum, common sense dictates that compromises would need to be made. It is the British way of doing things after all. Parliament's task is to deal with it and improve it as required, if at all possible. Whatever the outcome I will accept it.

35,000,000 people voted ( sorry Jack ) and virtually every post you have made ( Gill ) challenges the outcome or requires a re-run of some sort. I readily accept that the vote did not please you but any comment that implies that the voters were a tad unwise at best to vote the way they did is to ignore their reasons for the vote going that way. It was an incredibly high turnout and a clear statement of the failure of those hiding within the Westminster bubble. Arrogance may not have been the best choice but it seemed appropriate to me at the time I posted it.

Somebody way back suggested the posting of ' honest feelings ' on the subject of Brexit, it seemed a good idea so I provided some of mine. You deliver passion regarding your own point of view so you need to accept that others with an opposing view will respond in a like manner.

This is meant to be a discussion forum, so of course I'm going to give my opinion. However, I've always said, that I have never blamed leave voters for their votes, so I cannot agree that I'm ignoring their reason for voting the way they did.

I know some find the idea of a further public vote challenging, but there is is lot of traction for this now, so now doubt this subject will come up again. If it is discussed again, please remember it is only a discussion. It's not a personal attack on anybody who holds a different opinion.

On the subject of personal attacks, I have noted that you have said arrogance may not have been the best choice of word. However, it was still personal - and that is something I have endeavoured not to do.

Yes, we should be passionate about our beliefs, but not become angry if we find somebody else doesn't agree with us - and who is brave enough to say so.

I want to leave it here, as this is really making me fed up now.

[Jack Staff]

"I have spent the last few days in Washington talking to US Government Trade and Treasury officials encouraging a free trade deal with the UK.
Excellent response.
They have already started on the procedures to allow negotiations to start immediately once we leave the EU in March.
This will not be possible if we accept the Government's proposed deal with Europe, which will block every avenue of negotiation with America.
We have to have a Canada+++ deal to allow us to have a free trade deal with America." {David Davis MP}

Why is a backbench MP, with no portfolio, negotiating with the US?
Who paid for this trip?
Why is he allowed to negotiate with a foriegn power against the stated aims of our Prime Minister?

Who exactly is in control of our country right now?

[towny44]

Jack I cannot see anywhere in his statement where he said he was doing any negotiating. Lots of senior politicians must make similar trips where they sound out the prospects for issues they feel strongly about.

[Jack Staff]

Jack I cannot see anywhere in his statement where he said he was doing any negotiating. Lots of senior politicians must make similar trips where they sound out the prospects for issues they feel strongly about.

Oh, that's alright then. BTW, he is no longer a senior politician. He's selling the NHS in case you were not aware.

[david63]

Another polite request.

Can we please stop all the "he said", "she said" etc. I understand that the subject is emotive but can we all remain civilised and keep on topic.

I will not hesitate to remove this topic if this behaviour continues - any any more such posts will be deleted

[towny44]

You seem to have frightened off most posters David.

Anyway in the absence of any top flight footy on the box this lunchtime I watched Sky news and interviews with Nadine Dorries and Gillian Keegan, two scousers but with totally opposite views. Both spoke very eloquently and gave reasoned arguments as to why TM's draft agmt was dead in the water (ND) or why it was the only sensible option for parliament to vote for (GK).
Nadine believes TM will face a confidence vote, and even if she wins will be so injured as to make it impossible to continue, she then wants a Brexit PM and a renegotiation to improve the offer and rework the backstop.
Gillian feels that the May draft is the best we will achieve and that the backstop problem is being overplayed, also that a trade deal can be agreed by Dec 2020 thus negating the Irish border threat. She also hopes that faced with the possibility of a Govt defeat and a possible general election leading to a Labour victory that the Tory rebels will see sense and vote in favour of the deal.
Both arguments sounded reasonable, although neither seems very likely at this stage, but on the basis that GK is much more likeable than ND, I probably am leaning in favour of her argument at present.

[david63]

You seem to have frightened off most posters David.

Nah - it's Saturday afternoon, always quiet

[Gill W]

I'm not frightened off, I've just drawn a line under the situation and had nothing else to say!
Incidentally, I agree with David's post.

With regards to Towny's post.

The EU have made it pretty clear there will be no more negotiation, so even if there was a 'Brexit PM', the only deal is Theresa May's deal. So I can't go with Nadine Dorries.

With regard Gillian Keegan - The Irish Border is a huge issue, and won't just go away. Even if a trade deal is reached by the end of 2020, the basic problem is still there. If we are not in some sort of customs union with the EU we need a hard border of some sort. If we have a hard border, the Good Friday agreement is breached. Not sure how a trade deal alone would resolve this. So I can't agree with GK either

[Golden Princess]

I have been frightened off.

[Jack Staff]

“The future of the country and our relationship with Europe is at stake. This deal gives us no voice, no votes, no MEPs, no commissioner.”
{Nadine Dorries}

[johnds]

David

I think it is time that this topic was closed. It has been ping ponging about for months. Everyone has entreched views and no one has convinced anyone else to reverse their position. It just now serves to prolong arguments between members with no prospect of agreement.

[Onelife]

David

I think it is time that this topic was closed. It has been ping ponging about for months. Everyone has entreched views and no one has convinced anyone else to reverse their position. It just now serves to prolong arguments between members with no prospect of agreement.

Sorry John...but l hope David doesn't take your advice. I agree that views are very much as they were when this thread was started but there is still a long way to go in this debate. With the famous five about to try browbeating Theresa into further negotiations things could get interesting.

I don't have a problem with those who have a differing views to mine, certainly not at the expense of losing this thread l don't.

Regards

keith

[Onelife]

Brussels have said there is no room for further negotiations, in particular with that of a backstop arrangement. The famous five think there is room for further movement, and will, l think, give our PM an ultimatum of go back to the table or face having to accept their resignations. The gambling man inside me says we should go back to the table as l don't think we can go forward without a legally binding backstop in place. If l am wrong and we end up with a no deal then l can square this in the belief that our country needed a massive shake up and a no deal will see that this happens, hopefully creating a bubble that encompasses the whole of the UK not just London.

[Manoverboard]

Speaking as a Member and a ModPlod I do not think that it needs to closed but I appreciate the reasons that could lead to it happening.

At the end of the day If we cannot have an adult debate without getting childish about it then … ( content deleted ).

One way forward is to open a new Topic called " Jolly Boys ONLY ' which would permit a reasoned and less controversial discussion between those of us who do wish to leave the EU but who do not wish to be bombarded with alternatives that in all honesty will not be acceptable to us. I suggest this approach because we are reaching the end game and friction could increase.

[Onelife]

Speaking as a Member and a ModPlod I do not think that it needs to closed but I appreciate the reasons that could lead to it happening.

At the end of the day If we cannot have an adult debate without getting childish about it then … ( content deleted ).

One way forward is to open a new Topic called " Jolly Boys ONLY ' which would permit a reasoned and less controversial discussion between those of us who do wish to leave the EU but who do not wish to be bombarded with alternatives that in all honesty will not be acceptable to us. I suggest this approach because we are reaching the end game and friction could increase.

"Jolly boys ONLY"..........that's sexist moby.

[oldbluefox]

And one reserved for Remainers?

[Mervyn and Trish]

David

I think it is time that this topic was closed. It has been ping ponging about for months. Everyone has entreched views and no one has convinced anyone else to reverse their position. It just now serves to prolong arguments between members with no prospect of agreement.

I hope we can all play nicely and David feels able to keep this thread open. I started it when Brexit was invading other threads so that those who wished to avoid the issue could do so. That remains the case in my view.

[Mervyn and Trish]

The EU have made it pretty clear there will be no more negotiation, so even if there was a 'Brexit PM', the only deal is Theresa May's deal.

Since the deal is described by both sides as a draft document I don't see how either side can say it is final. As far as the EU is concerned it has to be ratified by 27 countries so anything might happen. And they don't want a no deal option any more than we do.

[Ranchi]

Alan Sugar tweeted this earlier today.
“Who agrees with me that a lot of people who voted in 2016 on the withdrawal from the EU did not in hindsight know what they were voting for . Now they realise we are in deep sh.. The people we are negotiating with did not ask for us to leave so why should they make a deal easy.”
Got to say, he seems to have a point.
The only thing that has surprised me about Brexit is that David Cameron has received so little censure for his reckless decision to play about with referenda. (He also got away with inflicting some deep wounds into the people of Scotland which have not gone away.) In his Scotland to leave the U.K. referendum the result meant that those in Westminster didn’t have to try and implement a decision that was against their beliefs and so, as far as he was concerned, the matter was ( more or less) closed as soon as the result was known.
Referenda (referendums?) don’t sit well in a system where we elect MPs as representatives rather than delegates and that should have appreciated before the decision to call a referendum was made.

[Gill W]

I think we need to keep this thread open. Now things are actually happening, it's important that we talk about it. If we disappear into individual threads where the only posts are from people who agree with each other, it becomes an echo chamber.

Moving on.

I think we need to get used to the idea that the draft withdrawal agreement is THE agreement. Yes, it's a draft at the moment, but the only changes that will be made are tweaks to the legalese wording, not changes to what has been agreed. The EU have made it very clear that they aren't up for any more negotiations regarding the withdrawal, and the agreement will be formalised at the summit next week on 25th Nevember. Therefore, there's no time for more negotiation, anyway.

I've seen various reports suggesting that the EU want to base our future relationship on the withdrawal agreement. Therefore, when the negotations on the future relationship start, we should be aware that the EU will want us in a customs union indefinitely.

As it stands at the moment, I can't see parliament accepting the withdrawal agreement, and will vote it down. Heaven knows what'll happen after that.

[Gill W]

Alan Sugar tweeted this earlier today.
“Who agrees with me that a lot of people who voted in 2016 on the withdrawal from the EU did not in hindsight know what they were voting for . Now they realise we are in deep sh.. The people we are negotiating with did not ask for us to leave so why should they make a deal easy.”
Got to say, he seems to have a point.
The only thing that has surprised me about Brexit is that David Cameron has received so little censure for his reckless decision to play about with referenda. (He also got away with inflicting some deep wounds into the people of Scotland which have not gone away.) In his Scotland to leave the U.K. referendum the result meant that those in Westminster didn’t have to try and implement a decision that was against their beliefs and so, as far as he was concerned, the matter was ( more or less) closed as soon as the result was known.
Referenda (referendums?) don’t sit well in a system where we elect MPs as representatives rather than delegates and that should have appreciated before the decision to call a referendum was made.

Yes, it was Cameron who opened this Pandora's Box. Danny Dyer censured Cameron in a rather entertaining way (it's on You Tube, if you haven't seen it), but so far I think he's got off quite lightly. I read the other week that he's bored, and wants to come back to politics! I think he should stay away for the forseeable. When the history books are written, I don't think history will be kind to Cameron.

I mostly agree with what Alan Sugar says. I think people had their reasons for voting the way they did, but there's a growing realisation that we are in a bit of a pickle.

[Onelife]

I mostly agree with what Alan Sugar says. I think people had their reasons for voting the way they did, but there's a growing realisation that we are in a bit of a pickle.
[/quote]

Funny you should mention that Gill as l made another 4 jars yesterday.....11 in total

[towny44]

Since I believe Alan Sugar has always been a remainer then his assumption that leavers would change their vote if given a second chance is only as valid as our remainers views, which most of our leave voters have challenged.

However I have heard little or nothing from remainers who now believe that TMs draft is dead in the water, about what they believe will happen with the Irish border if, as a result, we crash out with no deal. My understanding is that WTO rules demand that there has to be border checks to ensure the correct rules are being applied. How can the EU allow this to happen, when they are being so unwilling to consider a looser backstop, which with a reasonable trade deal would never need to be used?

[Stephen]

I see my post didn't agree with management. Oh well.

[Onelife]

I see my post didn't agree with management. Oh well.

I complained me old cock