Brexit

[Onelife]

Forgive them for what they are about to do.

l'm gonna sink or swim with Theresa....however, If it's a no vote l'll be jumping ship and getting on board the jolly referendum boat with all my remaineer friends.....squeak! squeak!

I've looked at the all the other options and can't see anything that comes close to the Chequers dea despite its failings......l will of course keep my aqualung close to me in the 'faint' hope that a no vote might get Brussels to think again about the backstop.

Should it come to be I will respect the people's vote but never forget what that vote did to our Ununited Kingdom.

[barney]

There is little evidence that another referendum would produce a different outcome.
It would be neck and neck either way, so which result would be legitimate?
The first one?
The second one?
Best of three?

I blame the Remainers for the predicament that the country is now in.
Had there been acceptance of the legitimate result and the country had worked together to get the best deal, then the EU would have had no option but to take a different stance.
all the time it could see cracks, it exploited them to the full.
Why do you think that Barnier gave time to the world and his wife who opposed the UK leaving?

The EU have done what the EU do best.
Denmark - vote again
Ireland- vote again
Holland - vote again.

…. now the UK - vote again ?

Well, IF the UK is asked to vote again, I for one will most certainly be voting the same way.
The question must be exactly the same as it was before.
Leave the EU
Remain in the EU

Then, if it's a narrow vote to remain, I shall immediately start a protest group and take to the streets in demonstration against a result that I cannot accept.
Democracy will never be the same again.
If the Tories win the next election, I'll refuse to accept it.
If Labour win the next election, I'll refuse to accept it.
If Trump wins again, I'll refuse to accept it.
If Gillingham get relegated, I'll refuse to accept it.

Anything that happens in the future that I don't like, I'm gonna refuse to accept.

[david63]

I blame the Remainers for the predicament that the country is now in.

Indirectly I agree with that statement but in particular I blame one remainer.

I have said this before and will say it again.

The reason that Brexit won the referendum was, in my opinion, due to the lack of commitment in pushing for a remain vote by Jeremy Corbyn. Had he gone round the country "shoulder to shoulder" with DC then I believe the outcome would have been different.

I know that this is a generalisation, and other factors come into play, but a large part of the Brexit vote was from what would normally be considered as Labour areas and my theory is that some (enough to tip the balance) saw Remain as a Conservative policy and being staunch Labour voters then they voted for the other option. Had JC been more proactive with stressing what was the "official" Labour policy of remain then the outcome may well have been different.

[barney]

But old Jezza has always been totally anti EU David, all of his political life.
He stayed quiet because he wants the UK out.
Many of his more radical policies depend on us not being a member of the EU.
He is very mush for state aid in certain industries (as am I) but cannot legally do that when in the EU.
His is anti EU procurement laws.
He sees that EU and a capitalist con trick and a Ponzi scheme, which it is.

After voting against every single piece of EU legislation for his political career, he wouldn't have looked good if he campaigned to remain.
He still doesn't want to remain but is doing a decent job of fence sitting.

[screwy]

Well lets hope he gets lots of splinters that go septic and his Butt cheeks fall off.

[david63]

But old Jezza has always been totally anti EU David, all of his political life.
He stayed quiet because he wants the UK out.
Many of his more radical policies depend on us not being a member of the EU.
He is very mush for state aid in certain industries (as am I) but cannot legally do that when in the EU.
His is anti EU procurement laws.
He sees that EU and a capitalist con trick and a Ponzi scheme, which it is.

After voting against every single piece of EU legislation for his political career, he wouldn't have looked good if he campaigned to remain.
He still doesn't want to remain but is doing a decent job of fence sitting.

I don't disagree with any of that but the "official" Labour policy was to Remain and that was what he, as leader, should have been promoting.

[barney]

Funnily enough, even with all of the chaos in the Conservatives at the moment, I still don't believe that Labour can win a general election.
Their best way in to power would be to do a deal with the Scottish Nationalists, which would be unlikely in my opinion.
The future is very uncertain.
Maybe there is a place for a few new parties in UK politics but I would caveat be careful for what you wish for.
Just look at France and their 'saviour' Macron who is now really showing his true Thatcherite colours.
Voted in as a man of the people when it was clear as day that he was a centre right Rothschilds banker.
I accept that he only got in because of fear from the far right Front National, but having said that, he was certainly no man of the people.
I see that the new Vox far right party has just taken 12 of the seats in the Andalucian parliament.
The rise of the far right all across Europe is something to be very concerned about.
The UK is currently the only European country without a large far right contingent and long may that last.

[barney]

But old Jezza has always been totally anti EU David, all of his political life.
He stayed quiet because he wants the UK out.
Many of his more radical policies depend on us not being a member of the EU.
He is very mush for state aid in certain industries (as am I) but cannot legally do that when in the EU.
His is anti EU procurement laws.
He sees that EU and a capitalist con trick and a Ponzi scheme, which it is.

After voting against every single piece of EU legislation for his political career, he wouldn't have looked good if he campaigned to remain.
He still doesn't want to remain but is doing a decent job of fence sitting.

I don't disagree with any of that but the "official" Labour policy was to Remain and that was what he, as leader, should have been promoting.

The 'official' Tory party policy was also to remain but that didn't do them much good either, did it?
63% of Labour seats voted to leave the EU, no matter what the propaganda says.
To make out that Labour voters generally support remain is clearly untrue.
Labour members do, but they are not enough to win anything. They have to take the voters with them.

I lived in the very affluent south East at the time of the referendum and with one exception, that being Royal Tunbridge Wells, Kent was solid leave.
You would think that an area like that would be for remain, but every area, bar one, voted to leave.

Basically, the big cities voted remain and the rest voted leave.

Even the most ardent Remainers like Soubry and Sarah Wolleston represent areas that voted leave.
Of course they think that their voters must be a bit thick and will try to show them the error of their ways.

[Gill W]

Forgive them for what they are about to do.

l'm gonna sink or swim with Theresa....however, If it's a no vote l'll be jumping ship and getting on board the jolly referendum boat with all my remaineer friends.....squeak! squeak!

I've looked at the all the other options and can't see anything that comes close to the Chequers dea despite its failings......l will of course keep my aqualung close to me in the 'faint' hope that a no vote might get Brussels to think again about the backstop.

Should it come to be I will respect the people's vote but never forget what that vote did to our Ununited Kingdom.

There comes a point where one has to look at what's best for the country, and I think you have reached that point.

If TM's deal deal is voted down - which it could well be, it will mean 'crashing out' on the 29th March. Whatever one's personal view, it cannot, in any shape or form be deemed best for the country to rip up all the treaties and agreements we have made over the last 40 years and start again from scratch.

Next week, we could be staring into the abyss - it must surely be the only sane thing to do, to ask the population if they really want to jump, based on what we now know about the likely consequences of not having a deal.

I wouldn't have made these comments if OL hadn't mentioned a second referendum. but the lack of opprobrium directed at him suggests this is now a safe subject to talk about.

Whatever happens, we will continue to be a divided nation for many years, as there irreparable damage has already been done. But I'd rather live is a functioning divided country, instead of a divided nation plunged into chaos

[Gill W]

I lived in the very affluent south East at the time of the referendum and with one exception, that being Royal Tunbridge Wells, Kent was solid leave.
You would think that an area like that would be for remain, but every area, bar one, voted to leave.

Just a comment - most of north Kent is not particularly affluent. The leave vote from Gravesend all the way along to Dover was no surprise at all

[barney]

I lived in the very affluent south East at the time of the referendum and with one exception, that being Royal Tunbridge Wells, Kent was solid leave.
You would think that an area like that would be for remain, but every area, bar one, voted to leave.

Just a comment - most of north Kent is not particularly affluent. The leave vote from Gravesend all the way along to Dover was no surprise at all

Most of north Kent is pretty wealthy in comparison Gill.
Obviously there are deprived areas but on the whole it's pretty affluent.
Even in the Medway Towns, you'd be hard pushed to find an average semi detached under 250K
In Maidstone you'd be hard pushed to find one under £300K
My younger brother lives in Gravesend and recently sold his Victorian semi in Singlewell for nearly half a million.

But, my point still stands about Brexit.
Reaserch a map of the country on how the vote went and you'll see it's true.

[Gill W]

You clearly haven't been down Gillingham High Street recently!

I know how the vote went - it was generally people who were older and /or less affluent who voted for Brexit.

It's not split on party lines.

[barney]

You clearly haven't been down Gillingham High Street recently!

Too blooming right I haven't !
The only reason to venture into the mean streets of Gillingham is to watch the mighty Gills (then depart quickly before the natives notice)
Having said that, there are some lovely areas around.

We lived in Harrietsham before moving down here and the development in the area was horrendous.
When we moved in, it was a quaint village.
When we moved out, it was an urban sprawl.
A friend of ours has just put her two up, two down on the market and is bailing out of the south east.
Up for £299K
That's for a mid terrace.
Unbelievable isn't it.

Mind you, house prices in Instow are not exactly cheap.

[Gill W]

Yes, it's a lot of money.
At least £100K more than a two up, two down off Gillingham High Street, though!

This summer I went to Dover, to visit Dover Castle. I was horrified at how run down Dover Town Centre was. Just been looking at house prices,much cheaper than Gillingham.

[Stephen]

You clearly haven't been down Gillingham High Street recently!

Too blooming right I haven't !
The only reason to venture into the mean streets of Gillingham is to watch the mighty Gills (then depart quickly before the natives notice)
Having said that, there are some lovely areas around.

We lived in Harrietsham before moving down here and the development in the area was horrendous.
When we moved in, it was a quaint village.
When we moved out, it was an urban sprawl.
A friend of ours has just put her two up, two down on the market and is bailing out of the south east.
Up for £299K
That's for a mid terrace.
Unbelievable isn't it.

Mind you, house prices in Instow are not exactly cheap.

A bit different from our two up two down mid terrace we brought in 1980 for £17,250.00 barney.

[oldbluefox]

You'd get three decent houses for that price up here and plenty left for a KFC!!!

[Stephen]

Only a KFC Foxy .

I would expect a selection box set of drugs and knives at the very least

[Onelife]

Hi Gill,

No one really cares what l think so l wouldn't read too much into the lack of approbrium? ( l'll have to look that one up)

'Country first'....Yep! l think that's a fair appraisal of my feelings at the moment.....l see it a bit like the titanic experience....There were many who survived but a large percentage of those who perished were from the poorer end of the ship.

So yes you are right Gill, in the absence of a workable alternative (in my opinion ) my conscious dictates that you have to look after those who wouldn't survive being left out at sea while the rest have enough air in our life jackets to keep us afloat for a few years.

All that being said Moby said that the final deal won't be done until the eleventh hour and as he hasn't let me down yet l'm still keeping my fingers crossed that Moby is right and Theresa can pull off a miracle.

Keith

[Manoverboard]

It's not over until the fat lady sings regardless of house prices in Gillingham be that in Kent or Dorset

[Onelife]

Speaking in the Commons, Mr Coxs (Attorrny General) said: "I would have preferred to have seen a clause that allowed us to exit if negotiations had irretrievably broken down, but I am prepared to lend my support to this agreement because I do not believe that we are likely to be entrapped in it permanently."
He went on: "This represents a sensible compromise; it has unattractive elements, unsatisfactory elements for us, but the question for the House is to weigh it up against the other potential alternatives and to assess whether it amounts to a calculated risk that this government and this House should take in these circumstances, weighed up against the realities of the alternatives.

Thank gawd someone is singing the right tune Moby

[johnds]

Next week, we could be staring into the abyss - it must surely be the only sane thing to do, to ask the population if they really want to jump, based on what we now know about the likely consequences of not having a deal.

GIll you repeatdly refer to leaving with no deal as "crashing out". You are not of course alone. We would in fact be leaving on an exisitng deal under the WTO. "Crashing out" is a rather exaggerated and emotive expression. Staring into the abyss is a similar phrase.

So you would like a "peoples' vote" more correctly called a second referendum.

Given that it would be difficult I imagine to hold such a vote with more that two alternatives what do you suggest those alternatives ought to be.

One answer is
a) Do you want to remain in the EU
b) Do you want to leave the EU

Another might be since we have enacted Article 50 we are leaving so it's
a) Leave under the deal
b) Leave on WTO terms

Neither of these would suit all parties and so Parliament ccould then spend the next six months arguing about it.
Then we get the protests and a call for another peoples' vote or a third referendum from which ever side loses

Repeat

[anniec]

We appear to have forgotten it would actually be a third referendum; the first was in 1975. At least there were a few decades between that one and the next.

[Gill W]

Re John's post number #3196

No country trades on WTO terms alone. Our current membership is via the EU. As I understand it, they need to separate our membership from the EU - and there's no guarantee our membership would be accepted on the same terms. All this would take time - and we have just over three months. Not to mention the question of hard border in NI. Or if we don't have a hard border in NI, I understand we can't have a hard boarder anywhere else, as all countries have to be treated the same under WTO rules.

WTO only covers trade, nothing else. Leaving with no deal means all our hundreds of treaties and agreements made through the EU come to an end. In three and a half months time. With nothing to replace them. Even the most committed leaver has to see chaos would ensue.

We've gone beyond what I want and what you want. We have to put the country first. In the words of Caroline Lucas on Tv a few minutes ago, leaving without a deal would be recklessly irresponsible. We can't do that to our country. It is an abyss

I think more people are beginning to understand what no deal really means - is it the 'will of the people' that we leave on those terms? Obviously, we need to wait to see what happens after the vote on the 11th. It's not my descision what goes on any possible referendum, I assume that, if May's deal is booted out by Parliament, then it'd have to be the same as before, leave or remain,

One life has said he now supports a referendum, its not just me. So he can be grilled as well. I've noticed nobody wants to give him a hard time over his support

[Gill W]

NB - just thinking about my earlier post, above.

Can they risk even having no deal on any new referendum. Should the question by May's deal v remain?

I haven't got the answers, it's a mess, and it breaks my heart to see this country in this state.

But I believe we'll be in a worse state if we leave with no deal.

[Onelife]

With respect Gill........If you take my post in the context it was meant then most will see that l am still a Brexiteer but in the event that Theresa doesn't get her plan through... and in the absence of any viable alternative l would be left with no other option but to cast my vote accordingly. I don't personal think it will come to a vote as l belive we will reach a deal that will leave the UK in a far worse place than we would have been had we gone along with the Chequers deal.

Regards

keith