Brexit

[oldbluefox]

I really don't think so Ray. I can see why you might be concerned for whatever reason but leaving the EU is about much more than personal self interests.
What we are doing is rejecting an institution which is protectionist and whose aspirations of federalism is not something I subscribe to.

[Jack Staff]

I really don't think so Ray. I can see why you might be concerned for whatever reason but leaving the EU is about much more than personal self interests.

It is only about self interest.
Farage, Johnson, Banks, Rees-Moog, Yaxley-Lennon, Redwood, Gove et al, just not your interest. But do please tell us about the "much more".

What we are doing is rejecting an institution which is protectionist and whose aspirations of federalism is not something I subscribe to.

What you are doing is rejecting an institution that is protecting you.

Federalism, yeah, like that could happen. Though with the UK out the chances do increase a little.

[oldbluefox]

This is the "much more" you refer to Jack. Pity you take so much time in trying to pick holes you don't read posts properly:
"What we are doing is rejecting an institution which is protectionist and whose aspirations of federalism is not something I subscribe to".

You seem to think UK cannot survive unless hanging on to the apron strings of the EU. Your lack of confidence in your country is staggering. You also seem to think after Brexit we will be totally cut adrift from Europe. It is in the best interests of Europe and UK that on certain issues cooperation will exist although I sense Remain ideology, based on alarmist principles, will disagree.

[Gill W]

Gill...Of the six or seven who regularly post on this topic l can think of at least two who have supported a more sensible/less disruptive approach for us leaving the EU.

You just need to get your head around the fact that we are leaving.

Well, you’ve spoken in moderate terms. Not sure the other Leavers have. I would say the rest are quite extreme. Also, as you regard your way as sensible and less disruptive, sounds like you agree with me that the extremist’s way is bonkers and chaotic.

Don’t worry about my head. I’m much more prepared for a no deal crash out that the average leaver. ( the pic of the ostrich with its head in the sand is a good symbol for them.)

[oldbluefox]

An interesting article for you Jack which includes federalism:
"This is good news. Both for the the U.K., which desperately needs to avoid a no-deal Brexit, and for the EU. If there’s one positive thing to have come out of the Brexit turmoil, it’s that it has highlighted an obvious fact: There should be a way to be affiliated with Europe and part of the European institutions without being a full member of the EU.


Why? That would allow the core of the EU — its original members and anyone who wants to cooperate more closely — to move toward the more integrated, federalist Europe that will be crucial if the EU is to be able to provide its citizens with prosperity and security where member countries fail to do so".

The rest of the article is interesting:
https://www.politico.eu/article/opinion ... ederal-eu/

[barney]

I remember reading that article on Politico. It's a good site if you want to know what is going on in Brussels. Very pro EU and pretty anti UK but that's understandable. There is no doubt which way the EU is headed. I think many will be glad to see the back of us. Visegrad oppose some of it but don't have the UKs clout. Read some articles from the big hitters like Weber Selmyr and Verhofstadt to get the real picture

[Ray Scully]

Don’t worry about my head. I’m much more prepared for a no deal crash out that the average leaver. ( the pic of the ostrich with its head in the sand is a good symbol for them.)

Hi Gill, like you we are prepared for the so far identified difficulties associated with a crash out. I must admit that on a selfish basis I wouldn't be too concerned to see it happen. A month of the news showing empty supermarket shelves, a 5 county wide traffic jam in the southeast and poor souls with extreme medical conditions resulting from a lack of medicines, would hopefully bring about some political changes.

[Onelife]

Gill...Of the six or seven who regularly post on this topic l can think of at least two who have supported a more sensible/less disruptive approach for us leaving the EU.

You just need to get your head around the fact that we are leaving.

Well, you’ve spoken in moderate terms. Not sure the other Leavers have. I would say the rest are quite extreme. Also, as you regard your way as sensible and less disruptive, sounds like you agree with me that the extremist’s way is bonkers and chaotic.

Don’t worry about my head. I’m much more prepared for a no deal crash out that the average leaver. ( the pic of the ostrich with its head in the sand is a good symbol for them.)

................

Hi Gill, l wouldn't go as far as saying a no deal scenario is bonkers or indeed extreme but it would, in my opinion, be chaotic.

Falling straight into a situation where indervidual trade deals would need to be negotiated takes time and Theresa's hard fought proposal gives us this time, . She just needs to deliver a time limited backstop and we will be one step closer to what the UK voted for.

A tally ho approach to a no deal Brexit may please those who will have the means to withstand the backlash of crashing out but l'm not so sure the country as a whole will be in the same position . We would be starting from scratch, with but a few of the thousands of trade deals needed to keep the UK wheels turning.

As long as Theresa sticks to her guns then her deal is the best deal as far as l am concerned, if however she buckles into accepting a softer Brexit then l'm right behind Barneys 'no deal battle bus' ...Why?....because 52% voted for it.

Keith

[Manoverboard]

Don’t worry about my head. I’m much more prepared for a no deal crash out that the average leaver. ( the pic of the ostrich with its head in the sand is a good symbol for them.)

Hi Gill, like you we are prepared for the so far identified difficulties associated with a crash out. I must admit that on a selfish basis I wouldn't be too concerned to see it happen. A month of the news showing empty supermarket shelves, a 5 county wide traffic jam in the southeast and poor souls with extreme medical conditions resulting from a lack of medicines, would hopefully bring about some political changes.

… that bit of scaremongering has been posted a number of times on here, however, did you know that there is a shortage and/or incidents of stockpiling of medicine every single month of every single year but that some months are higher than others … this has been the case since Adam wor a lad but these days only those with an agenda highlight the months with the higher figures. Odd that don'tcha think ?

[Ray Scully]

Don’t worry about my head. I’m much more prepared for a no deal crash out that the average leaver. ( the pic of the ostrich with its head in the sand is a good symbol for them.)

Hi Gill, like you we are prepared for the so far identified difficulties associated with a crash out. I must admit that on a selfish basis I wouldn't be too concerned to see it happen. A month of the news showing empty supermarket shelves, a 5 county wide traffic jam in the southeast and poor souls with extreme medical conditions resulting from a lack of medicines, would hopefully bring about some political changes.

… that bit of scaremongering has been posted a number of times on here, however, did you know that there is a shortage and/or incidents of stockpiling of medicine every single month of every single year but that some months are higher than others … this has been the case since Adam wor a lad but these days only those with an agenda highlight the months with the higher figures. Odd that don'tcha think ?

Moby

As our eldest son is a pharmacist and we were only talking last evening about the situation. Outwith the 'usual' shortages you mentioned he and colleagues are very fearful of potential supply problems brought about by the manner in which we leave the EU which could prove fatal.

[barney]

An inconvenient fact is that the UK exports more in medicines to the EU, than it imports.
Some things, like Insulin are mainly made in Denmark, but any silly embargo would seriously impact Europe.

How on earth can the UK 'crash out'
We've given two years notice for goodness sake.
That is what the Treaty says we should do, and that is exactly what we have done.
So, 'crash' is a bit of an extreme wording.
Under prepared is more like it, and that is solely May's fault.
She should have spent more time preparing, and less trying to get through an unacceptable deal.
In my opinion, she should have one more attempt to with the EU team.
If, as indicated, they won't/can't budge on the backstop, then say, nice speaking, thanks but no thanks, so see you on the other side.

I'll bet now, that the following day, everything will be pretty much normal.

I'm still trying to find out information on who will be putting up this border in Ireland ?
Not the UK says HMG.
Not us, says the Irish,
No border in Ireland is acceptable, says the EU.

So, I ask again, who will erect this mythical hard border?
Answers on a postcard, please

[david63]

Could somebody explain to me what the current obsession is that JC et al have for a General Election as, from where I am looking, there is either some "cunning plan" afoot or a total lack of understanding the situation (and I prefer the latter).

If there were to be a GE anytime soon and Labour lost then it would be bye, bye JC as no leader could survive loosing two GEs in the space of a couple of years.

If, on the other hand, Labour were to win then JC would be between a rock and a hard place. He would inherit a deal which he does not agree with and voted against with a promise of re-negotiating it - something that the EU have said will not happen, OK he may be able to "tweak" it around the edges but I cannot see that being sufficient to appease many. His other options are to have a no deal Brexit, which he is totally opposed to, another referendum which again he is opposed to and the outcome would be unknown and possibly create even more problems or remain in the EU which would prevent his "re nationalisation" policies going ahead as, in all probability, they would break EU rules.

So one way or the other he is dead in the water.

Am I missing something?

[Jack Staff]

You seem to think UK cannot survive unless hanging on to the apron strings of the EU. Your lack of confidence in your country is staggering.

I think the UK will not survive this Brexit fiasco. Nothing to do with the EU, half the nation states voted to remain. The Westminster governments insistence that we all leave together means at least one nation will be lost to the UK. If that nation is Scotland, that is the end of the United Kingdom.

I do not have a lack of confidence in my country. I have every confidence that Brexiters, if allowed, will stop it existing. Your determination to have your Brexit at the cost of your country is staggering.

[Manoverboard]

Moby

As our eldest son is a pharmacist and we were only talking last evening about the situation. Outwith the 'usual' shortages you mentioned he and colleagues are very fearful of potential supply problems brought about by the manner in which we leave the EU which could prove fatal.

I am sure they do have genuine concerns but that is doubtless because they are caring folk … having concerns however does not mean that shortages of ' live saving drugs ' will actually arise.

[Jack Staff]

Could somebody explain to me what the current obsession is that JC et al have for a General Election as,

JC is a Brexiter and wants the UK out of the EU.
He will pretend to want a GE, but only calls no confidence votes when he knows he will lose.
He refuses to back another vote that might stop Brexit.
He continues to push the Tory Brexit through so that once the disaster is complete, he can come to power and blame them.
Then he can 'rebuild' the country in a Venezuela socialist style.

[barney]

As a DEMOCRAT, I'm totally comfortable with the Scots, Northern Irish or Welsh asking for a vote on self governance.
Should THEY chose to become fully independent, who are we to stop them ?

The trouble with you colonials is that you have never moved on from the days of the Empire.

At least we can agree about old Jezza, and the Labour Party
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... l-suggests

So. it's now down to both Libdems and Mrs Lucas

[Jack Staff]

As a DEMOCRAT, I'm totally comfortable with the Scots, Northern Irish or Welsh asking for a vote on self governance.
Should THEY chose to become fully independent, who are we to stop them ?

So your plan is to make England so horrible that not even our previous countrymen want anything to do with us.

The trouble with you colonials is that you have never moved on from the days of the Empire.

[Ray Scully]

Moby

As our eldest son is a pharmacist and we were only talking last evening about the situation. Outwith the 'usual' shortages you mentioned he and colleagues are very fearful of potential supply problems brought about by the manner in which we leave the EU which could prove fatal.

I am sure they do have genuine concerns but that is doubtless because they are caring folk … having concerns however, does not mean that shortages of ' live saving drugs ' will actually arise.

So its tough luck if it does?

[Ray Scully]

Moby

As our eldest son is a pharmacist and we were only talking last evening about the situation. Outwith the 'usual' shortages you mentioned he and colleagues are very fearful of potential supply problems brought about by the manner in which we leave the EU which could prove fatal.

I am sure they do have genuine concerns but that is doubtless because they are caring folk … having concerns however, does not mean that shortages of ' live saving drugs ' will actually arise.

Fearful rather than "having concerns" So is it just tough luck if it does?

[Gill W]

Hi Gill, like you we are prepared for the so far identified difficulties associated with a crash out. I must admit that on a selfish basis I wouldn't be too concerned to see it happen. A month of the news showing empty supermarket shelves, a 5 county wide traffic jam in the southeast and poor souls with extreme medical conditions resulting from a lack of medicines, would hopefully bring about some political changes.

… that bit of scaremongering has been posted a number of times on here, however, did you know that there is a shortage and/or incidents of stockpiling of medicine every single month of every single year but that some months are higher than others … this has been the case since Adam wor a lad but these days only those with an agenda highlight the months with the higher figures. Odd that don'tcha think ?

Moby

As our eldest son is a pharmacist and we were only talking last evening about the situation. Outwith the 'usual' shortages you mentioned he and colleagues are very fearful of potential supply problems brought about by the manner in which we leave the EU which could prove fatal.

My best friend is a Practice Manager at a GP's surgery, and the pharmacists that they deal with are becoming very concerned about the possibility of supply problems. One is already having sleepless nights, wondering how they'll cope.

An inconvenient fact is that the UK exports more in medicines to the EU, than it imports.
Some things, like Insulin are mainly made in Denmark, but any silly embargo would seriously impact Europe.

How on earth can the UK 'crash out'
We've given two years notice for goodness sake.
That is what the Treaty says we should do, and that is exactly what we have done.
So, 'crash' is a bit of an extreme wording.
Under prepared is more like it, and that is solely May's fault.
She should have spent more time preparing, and less trying to get through an unacceptable deal.
In my opinion, she should have one more attempt to with the EU team.
If, as indicated, they won't/can't budge on the backstop, then say, nice speaking, thanks but no thanks, so see you on the other side.

I'll bet now, that the following day, everything will be pretty much normal.

I'm still trying to find out information on who will be putting up this border in Ireland ?
Not the UK says HMG.
Not us, says the Irish,
No border in Ireland is acceptable, says the EU.

So, I ask again, who will erect this mythical hard border?
Answers on a postcard, please

Two years notice - yet 10 weeks before we leave, we still have no idea on what basis we're going to leave.

I'm not even going to bother to explain yet again why leaving without a deal is extreme.

I suspect that, in a no deal scenario there'll be a rash of food panic buying the week before Brexit, and shelves be will empty. However, yes, I agree, the day after Brexit, all will look quite normal on the surface. You and some of your pals on here will be cock a hoop. However, things have a habit of snowballing, and within days, it could have gone south very quickly. If I were you, I wouldn't be too cocky on 30th March, as you could have egg on your face a few days later!

[Gill W]

Hi Gill, l wouldn't go as far as saying a no deal scenario is bonkers or indeed extreme but it would, in my opinion, be chaotic.

Falling straight into a situation where indervidual trade deals would need to be negotiated takes time and Theresa's hard fought proposal gives us this time, . She just needs to deliver a time limited backstop and we will be one step closer to what the UK voted for.

A tally ho approach to a no deal Brexit may please those who will have the means to withstand the backlash of crashing out but l'm not so sure the country as a whole will be in the same position . We would be starting from scratch, with but a few of the thousands of trade deals needed to keep the UK wheels turning.

As long as Theresa sticks to her guns then her deal is the best deal as far as l am concerned, if however she buckles into accepting a softer Brexit then l'm right behind Barneys 'no deal battle bus' ...Why?....because 52% voted for it.

Keith

The problem is, Theresa's deal suffered the biggest commons defeat in history. It's dead. I think both you and Theresa need to to get your head round that.

I don't think any trade deals have been agreed yet?

I don't think 52% voted for 'no deal'? at the time of the vote, voters were being told how easy it would be to get a deal. I doubt if anybody expressly voted for not deal at all

Moby

As our eldest son is a pharmacist and we were only talking last evening about the situation. Outwith the 'usual' shortages you mentioned he and colleagues are very fearful of potential supply problems brought about by the manner in which we leave the EU which could prove fatal.

I am sure they do have genuine concerns but that is doubtless because they are caring folk … having concerns however does not mean that shortages of ' live saving drugs ' will actually arise.

What if shortages do arise though? And lives are lost?

[oldbluefox]

You seem to think UK cannot survive unless hanging on to the apron strings of the EU. Your lack of confidence in your country is staggering.

I think the UK will not survive this Brexit fiasco. Nothing to do with the EU, half the nation states voted to remain. The Westminster governments insistence that we all leave together means at least one nation will be lost to the UK. If that nation is Scotland, that is the end of the United Kingdom.

I do not have a lack of confidence in my country. I have every confidence that Brexiters, if allowed, will stop it existing. Your determination to have your Brexit at the cost of your country is staggering.

If Scotland. Wales or Northern Ireland vote to leave the UK I believe we should respect their wishes whether we agree with them or not. That is how democracy works. One side wins, the other loses. It's that simple.

[barney]

"Two years notice - yet 10 weeks before we leave, we still have no idea on what basis we're going to leave."

Yes Gill, but that is not the fault of the people who voted to leave.
That is the fault of those who failed to implement it.

Every single MP, protestor and political agitator who have done their level best to oppose the result of the referendum at every turn, will bare the blame if it does all go t*ts up.

Some are STILL trying to re-run the referendum for God's sake
It wasn't fair !
It was the Russians
blah blah blah.
A withdrawal agreement would be better for all.
Of that their is no doubt.
But, it must be a good Withdrawal Agreement, which most will accept, the PM's wasn't.
So, she either gets a better one, or none at all.
The Irish back stop and our inability to rescind it is the deal breaker for many MPs
If she concedes this simple point, then God help us if she is negotiating the Trade Agreement.

It's the same with the divorce bill (Bribe Money)
She started from a point of 'how much' and never questioned why the UK should pay anything to leave.
Financial obligations ?
The budget that we signed up to only runs until 2020, so how can our 'bill' be nearly five times our annual net payment of 8 billion.
That make no sense at all.
These things should be challenged in court.
Then there is the question of our 'assets' in the EU.
The UK has paid in £250 billion since joining.
Do we not have a share of the things that you and I have paid for through our taxes?
Is the UK expected to just write it off?
I'd like someone to tell us.

[Jack Staff]

If Scotland. Wales or Northern Ireland vote to leave the UK I believe we should respect their wishes whether we agree with them or not. That is how democracy works. One side wins, the other loses. It's that simple.

But they are only leaving to get away from your Brexit.
It will be the Brexiters fault. Simple.

(of course there are other reasons for independence, but the Brexit debacle is the one to create the majority)

[barney]

If Scotland. Wales or Northern Ireland vote to leave the UK I believe we should respect their wishes whether we agree with them or not. That is how democracy works. One side wins, the other loses. It's that simple.

But they are only leaving to get away from your Brexit.
It will be the Brexiters fault. Simple.

(of course there are other reasons for independence, but the Brexit debacle is the one to create the majority)

That's simply not true Jack.
You are re-writing history again.
The SNP only exists to leave the United Kingdom.. the clue is in the name.
The same with the Welsh Nationalists and SinnFein
They are all separatist parties and nothing to do with Brexit.
Brexit just makes it a bit more convenient to argue.
The SNP called for separation well before Cameron even thought of a referendum.

https://www.politico.eu/article/germany ... -miss-you/
This is an interesting read.
Maybe Mutti can have a quiet word with Juncker.