Brexit

[oldbluefox]

Quizzical Bob makes a good case, not for remaining in the EU, but for striking a deal which is satisfactory to both ourselves and the EU.

[towny44]

That's the John Redwood that since 2016 advised his customers to move their money out of the UK isn't it?

Not at all certain Jack, but I guess the left wing press are as good at producing fake news as anyone else. If true it is likely to be for specific reasons for that client's portfolio and unlikely to apply to all of them, but then you wouldn't be interested if that were the case, would you?

[Jack Staff]

That's the John Redwood that since 2016 advised his customers to move their money out of the UK isn't it?

Not at all certain Jack, but I guess the left wing press are as good at producing fake news as anyone else. If true it is likely to be for specific reasons for that client's portfolio and unlikely to apply to all of them, but then you wouldn't be interested if that were the case, would you?

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexite ... uk-2017-11
https://www.ftadviser.com/investments/2 ... uk-assets/
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 7d2f3833c4
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 56771.html

[Mervyn and Trish]

Nonetheless ignore the person and look at the facts in the article about the decline in industry since joining the EU. If the rest of manufacturing left in its entirety post Brexit it wouldn't match the decimation of the past 40 years.

[Jack Staff]

Industry in the UK has declined in the UK over the last 40 years.
The UK has been in the EU for the last 40 years therefore it is the EU's fault.
Or
Over the last 40 years I have got grey haired and fat.
I have been an EU citizen for 40 years therefore it is the EU's fault.
Thank you Merv, you have made me feel much better about myself, knowing my ageing body is not my fault.

I'm guessing you have not been to Germany?

[Manoverboard]

I've been to virtually all of Germany and thought they were doing extremely well, especially in the old Eastern sectors, but there was not a preponderance of fat grey haired people although they did seem to ride their bicycles far too fast.



Some of the UK industry over the last 40 years was lost due to inefficiencies and the militant Trade Unions of course but some was surely down to EU policies, for example fishing, farming and coal mining. Was it not also the EU's idea to make all refrigeration appliances in Italy and all the tractors in Hungary etc ?




.

[Jack Staff]

Some of the UK industry over the last 40 years was lost due to inefficiencies and the militant Trade Unions of course but some was surely down to EU policies, for example fishing, farming and coal mining. Was it not also the EU's idea to make all refrigeration appliances in Italy and all the tractors in Hungary etc ?

Fishing, might be because we fished them all? Herring?
Farmers are in severe trouble if we leave, especially on WTO.
Coal mining, have you not noticed we don't have steam trains any more? When was the last time London had a 'pea souper'?

I don't know where you get your information from, but Massey Fergusons are made in France.

[barney]

And yet, for all the post vote arguments either way, the intellectuals still cannot figure out why the majority voted to leave.

The UK's relationship with Europe has never been simple nor static.
It took the country years to join what was then the European Community and, even then, when it was last put to the vote in 1975 many backed it grudgingly or for narrow economic reasons.
Many of those have since changed their minds, with their earlier ambivalence turning into outright hostility.
There have been decades of scepticism towards the EU among politicians and in large parts of the UK media.

Surely, after all these years of turmoil, it's better for both parties to agree that we don't and probably never will, see eye to eye.

Do a trade deal that suits both sides.
Keep it simple.
Both sides can claim 'victory'
The EU can then carry on with it's political project and the UK can roll around in fairy dust while riding our unicorns into the sunset.

[oldbluefox]

Some of the UK industry over the last 40 years was lost due to inefficiencies and the militant Trade Unions of course but some was surely down to EU policies, for example fishing, farming and coal mining. Was it not also the EU's idea to make all refrigeration appliances in Italy and all the tractors in Hungary etc ?

Fishing, might be because we fished them all? Herring?
Farmers are in severe trouble if we leave, especially on WTO.
Coal mining, have you not noticed we don't have steam trains any more? When was the last time London had a 'pea souper'?

I don't know where you get your information from, but Massey Fergusons are made in France.

Not quite true Jack

"From a British perspective this shared EEZ can be seen as a very bad deal. In 2015, EU vessels caught 683,000 tonnes of fish worth £484 million in UK waters, but UK vessels only caught 111,000 tonnes worth £114 million revenue in EU member states’ waters. In parts of the Celtic Sea (which prior to the CFP would have been controlled by the UK) French fishermen have the right to catch three times more Dover sole and four times more cod than British fishermen. Around 40% of the Danish fishing fleet’s total catch comes from the 200-mile zone which Britain would control if it was not in the CFP, and some Danish fishing communities rely entirely on catching fish within the bounds of what used to be Britain’s territorial waters. Clearly the Common Fisheries Policy and its shared EEZ has been immensely beneficial to some groups within Europe’s fishing industry, but those who now have to share what used to be their fishing grounds with others may not take such a positive view". (British Sea Fishing.co.uk)
Little wonder that so many fishing ports are now on their knees.

Farmers rely to a great extent on subsidies but what is to say those subsidies will not be paid post Brexit but instead of payment for laying land fallow we should be paying them for increasing food production, thereby relying less on EU imports. Hopefully it will also slow down live exports of sheep and cattle.
(For some reason we deem it acceptable to give money to the EU; some of it they give back to us in subsidies or to support their own pet projects and white elephants and the rest they keep themselves to maintain the manner to which they have become accustomed).

Coal is still mined for use in electric generation.

[anniec]

Quick question for Jack and anyone else convinced there will be a 2nd referendum: Do you still think this will happen?

[barney]

I agree 100% Foxy
Subsidies should be given for green farming, that has less impact on the environment.

I totally disagree with live animal exports under any circumstances and hopefully this will be stopped as soon as we have left.
There is no need for it and it's inhumane.

The myth of EU subsidies is a weird one.
As you say, they are merely giving us some of our money back.

In a nutshell, you give me a lump of money and over time, I'll give you some of it back, but I'll decide what you spend it on ????
In return for this, I also commit to buy substantially more from you than you do from me.

[Ray Scully]

Most didn't vote for Brexit because of imports and exports. CE markings are irrelevant to the majority. Remainers still think that it's all about trade. It's about independence.

IT'S ALL ABOUT IDEOLOGY AND BUGGER THE CONSEQUENCES

[barney]

Quick question for Jack and anyone else convinced there will be a 2nd referendum: Do you still think this will happen?

Only if the Labour party commit to it.
With a three line whip + SNP + Liberals + single Green + the Tory rebels, they may squeak it through.

Of course, we cannot gauge how many Labour MPs from large leave areas will deny the whip.
Last week there was 13 who defied and 17 who abstained.

So, the odds of it happening, while not impossible is unlikely.

I'd never say never to anything with this crackpot bunch of self serving politicians.

What I am sure about is that Grieve, Soubry et al have all written the longest resignation letters in history.

[barney]

Most didn't vote for Brexit because of imports and exports. CE markings are irrelevant to the majority. Remainers still think that it's all about trade. It's about independence.

IT'S ALL ABOUT IDEOLOGY AND bug*er THE CONSEQUENCES

I assume that you are talking about the EU, Ray.
Protect the 'PROJECT' at all costs.

Hanging Ireland out to dry is worth it ?

All they have to do to avoid that is be a bit flexible on the back stop.

[david63]

have you not noticed we don't have steam trains any more?

Yes we do, perhaps not may but there are still a few "main line" steam trains running - more fake news!

[oldbluefox]

Quick question for Jack and anyone else convinced there will be a 2nd referendum: Do you still think this will happen?

Interestingly Gina Miller was on Question Time this week and there was no question on a second referendum. In fact surprisingly I cannot recollect her mentioning a second referendum.
I would say I thought she did speak very eloquently and on some points I was in total agreement with her. Shock horror!!!

[Jack Staff]

Quick question for Jack and anyone else convinced there will be a 2nd referendum: Do you still think this will happen?

Tough question.
I would hope that the politicians that we pay to look after our country will come to their senses and simply admit that Brexit will harm us and so have a duty to stop it. Fat chance I know.
Referendums are only called (in this country) when our politicians do not know what else to do. It was clear in the sixties we had to join, but when we managed it it the seventies there was still a bunch of people who would not accept the democracy of Parliament forcing the referendum of 1975. But this was only ever an 'are you sure?' referendum because Parliament had already taken us in. The 2016 ref was Cameron's only way to shut up half his party.
As for a new referendum now, I think we should have another one in the same 'are you sure?' fashion as the first 1975 one.
But more specifically to your question, yes I do think it will happen because it is perfectly clear after all this can kicking, our politicians do not know what else to do.

[Jack Staff]

have you not noticed we don't have steam trains any more?

Yes we do, perhaps not may but there are still a few "main line" steam trains running - more fake news!

Stop it David! I think we can all agree, in the context of this conversation, we don't have steam trains any more.
Once or twice a year I like to go to our local station to see one go through, and plan to be on one some time. The catalogue arrived only the day before yesterday.

[barney]

Quick question for Jack and anyone else convinced there will be a 2nd referendum: Do you still think this will happen?

Tough question.
I would hope that the politicians that we pay to look after our country will come to their senses and simply admit that Brexit will harm us and so have a duty to stop it. Fat chance I know.
Referendums are only called (in this country) when our politicians do not know what else to do. It was clear in the sixties we had to join, but when we managed it it the seventies there was still a bunch of people who would not accept the democracy of Parliament forcing the referendum of 1975. But this was only ever an 'are you sure?' referendum because Parliament had already taken us in. The 2016 ref was Cameron's only way to shut up half his party.
As for a new referendum now, I think we should have another one in the same 'are you sure?' fashion as the first 1975 one.
But more specifically to your question, yes I do think it will happen because it is perfectly clear after all this can kicking, our politicians do not know what else to do.

Please correct me if I'm wrong Jack, but I seem to recall that Labour, under Tony Blair, stood on a manifesto of having an in/out referendum on our EU membership.
Maybe I'm going ga ga, but I think that I remember that.
Anyway, in good old politician tradition, if he did, he didn't see it through.

My point really is, that UK the has never sat all that comfortably with the ethos of the EU technocrats.
Now is a perfect time to part company, hopefully amicably.

This is how I think it will now play out (probably wrong)

May will go back to try and renegotiate the WA on the back stop.
They will say no …. but offer a fudge type codicil, attached to the treaty.
May will present this as a victory and very narrowly get it through Parliament.
We officially leave the EU.
Then find out that we are really still in, in all but name.

May will go and …. life will go on as normal.

[Jack Staff]

Not quite true Jack

"From a British perspective ...

Fishing employs about half the number of people as Harrods. To cripple a country for that number of jobs is ridiculous. Far more jobs will be lost because of Brexit. However, the EU is democratic and all the states views are taken into account. The fishing commission at the EU meets regularly to discuss these matters. The problem arises that our representative can't be bothered to turn up. From memory he attended one of forty six meetings.

Farmers rely to a great extent on subsidies but what is to say those subsidies will not be paid post Brexit but instead of payment for laying land fallow we should be paying them for increasing food production, thereby relying less on EU imports. Hopefully it will also slow down live exports of sheep and cattle.
(For some reason we deem it acceptable to give money to the EU; some of it they give back to us in subsidies or to support their own pet projects and white elephants and the rest they keep themselves to maintain the manner to which they have become accustomed).

I am really looking forward to those Sunderland oranges, and Fair Isle bananas.

Coal is still mined for use in electric generation.

When I started primary school, a little while ago now, there used to be a big pile of coke waiting to loaded into the furnace to keep us all warm. The by product of gas production from coal. Then along came fast natural gas from the North Sea. Coal was dying long before we joined the EEC.
Luckily coal fired stations are on the way out too. But I'm guessing as a Brexiter you are also a climate change denier too?

[barney]

"I am really looking forward to those Sunderland oranges, and Fair Isle bananas. "

I think you are losing the plot Jack

[Jack Staff]

Then find out that we are really still in, in all but name....

...May will go and …. life will go on as normal.

But at least then we will be able to argue which of us has been most betrayed by this despicable government and pathetic opposition.

[Jack Staff]

"I am really looking forward to those Sunderland oranges, and Fair Isle bananas. "

I think you are losing the plot Jack

I think my sarcasm is wasted on you.

[oldbluefox]

I think you missed the point Jack. You made three statements. I said they were not quite true. I wasn't moralising or expressing an opinion, merely stating facts.

[oldbluefox]

I am really looking forward to those Sunderland oranges, and Fair Isle bananas.

They'll probably be bigger than the tat Europe sends over to us. The Mackems never do anything by halves!!!