Brexit

[Jack Staff]

Hi Jack,
This past two years have been a sharp learning curve and will no doubt be an even more daunting one for those who may wish to follow in our footsteps...but this situation is what it is and we have to find a way through it.....For better or for worse history will be our judge but to have never tried is to accept what is wrong.

On the face of it I can accept that TM's deal is a sensible solution to a vote of 52/48. We will half leave the EU.
In reality any solution that makes allies of Barney and myself is doomed. We (the public) will never stop arguing over this.

I'm not to worried about our negotiating skills as we won't find ourselves in the same negotiating position we have been in with the EU who didn't want to negotiate because they didn't want us to leave....We will in effect be starting from a relatively level playing field when it comes to negotiating trade deals in a global market place.

Unfortunately that is not the case. Japan has already said it will extract better terms from us than the EU. Simply because they need the EU more than they need the UK. It is not a level playing field. This will be replicated across all deals we negotiate.
We can not negotiate trade deals concurrently. We simply do not have the resources. We will of course go for the best/biggest ones first, but to replicate what we currently have will take decades. All the time lagging behind our competitors, making our position weaker.

[Jack Staff]

If the politicians had come out on 24th June 2016 waving a document and stating ‘We have a great deal for the UK’ Would there have been 91 pages covering a period 2+ years claiming we have capitulated & should have got a better deal? Is it any surprise that negotiations have been so protracted...after all there are a lot of staff to pay.

If the politicians had come out and said we will take two years deciding what we want and a plan to do it, triggering Article 50 in 2018. All the current problems could have been avoided, with a sensible exit in 2020.
As it is will we still be arguing with the EU and ourselves in 2021.

[towny44]

If the politicians had come out on 24th June 2016 waving a document and stating ‘We have a great deal for the UK’ Would there have been 91 pages covering a period 2+ years claiming we have capitulated & should have got a better deal? Is it any surprise that negotiations have been so protracted...after all there are a lot of staff to pay.

If the politicians had come out and said we will take two years deciding what we want and a plan to do it, triggering Article 50 in 2018. All the current problems could have been avoided, with a sensible exit in 2020.
As it is will we still be arguing with the EU and ourselves in 2021.

Jack, another of your pointless posts.
I don't believe the EU would have allowed us to negotiate with them before we triggered article 50, and deciding amongst ourselves what we wanted would have been extremely pointless without knowing whether the EU would seriously consider our requests.

[Gill W]

I was reading an article by a guy who thinks that he may have come up with a compromise to the Irish Backstop issue in the event of no deal.

Why not have a referendum ?

The people of Northern Ireland could be asked the question.

a vote on whether to

Stay in a Customs Union with Ireland, for trade purposes, thus negating a border with Ireland but putting one up with the rest of the UK
Or
To leave the Customs Union with the rest of the UK with the potential for a border of some description in Ireland.

Very simple, tick a box and the majority wins.

Why not asked those most affected what they actually want ?

Anything relating to the Irish border affects both sides of the border, therefore they'd need to have a referendum in both NI and Ireland.

They had a a referendum on the Good Friday agreement on both sides of the border and the result was very clear cut in support of the agreement.

Heaven knows what'd happen if the results of Backstop referendum were 50/50, or if one side of the border voted one way and the other side they other way. Which referendum would you respect!

[Gill W]

… and I was hearing about a software solution to the backstop situation, tis based on a system used in Sweden I believe.

I thought you were against freedom of movement?

I understood that it was a software solution to the control of goods rather than people.

ps … for the record I am not against ' freedom of movement ' providing we ( the UK ) dictate the terms of that movement.

I assume you mean people coming into the UK.

Freedom of movement works both ways. We can't dictate the terms on which UK citizens reside and work in the EU - I can't see them going for that

Unless all parties are in agreement and are all treated exactly the same, it's not freedom of movement.

[barney]

If the politicians had come out on 24th June 2016 waving a document and stating ‘We have a great deal for the UK’ Would there have been 91 pages covering a period 2+ years claiming we have capitulated & should have got a better deal? Is it any surprise that negotiations have been so protracted...after all there are a lot of staff to pay.

If the politicians had come out and said we will take two years deciding what we want and a plan to do it, triggering Article 50 in 2018. All the current problems could have been avoided, with a sensible exit in 2020.
As it is will we still be arguing with the EU and ourselves in 2021.

Again we are in 100% agreement jack
What is going on ???

I would have timed the UK departure date to coincide with the end of the EU budget in 2020.
So, we would have been fully 'paid up' right to our departure date.
That would have negated any argument about 'money owed' and certainly no 39 billion bribe money.
I would have taken full ownership for any EU pension rights of UK workers and built that back into our own budget.

I would have kicked 'No deal' into hyperdrive and made all appropriate arrangements, whilst negotiating a trade deal in good faith with the EU.
Then, if agreement could not be reached by departure date, a least both sides would have had plenty of notice.

The Irish 'border issue' would have been decided by the trade agreement, not a withdrawal agreement.
There is no compulsory mandate for a withdrawal agreement in article 50.

Although the Irish border issue is caused by Brexit, it is up to the EU to come up with an agreement, as they are the ones looking to protect their external border, not us.
The choice is theirs as to what type of border is enforced.
We should just go along with what they propose.
When you consider the piddley amount of traffic daily, the Calais border is far more of an issue for both parties.
I cannot believe that any sort of border between Ireland and NI will reinstate the previous situation, regarding terrorism.
I think that this is a red herring in the Brexit argument.

Anyone can see that May cocked up from the very beginning.
Once again, she was badly advised, and once again, listened to them and took it.
Advisors advise - Leaders lead
Unfortunately, we have been lacking leadership form day one.

[Jack Staff]

Again we are in 100% agreement jack
What is going on ???
...
Anyone can see that May cocked up from the very beginning.
Once again, she was badly advised, and once again, listened to them and took it.
Advisors advise - Leaders lead
Unfortunately, we have been lacking leadership form day one.

Well I might have 'accidentally' left out the bit that if we had spent two years planning sensibly and methodically, without the panic of upcoming Bidet, sorry B-day, we would have realised it was a stupid thing to do and decided not to do it.
So normal service resumed.
But I certainly agree 100% on your last bit.

[Onelife]

I don't agree with Barney's last bit...., in fact l don't agree with his first bit either.

What Barney would have done and what the UK government would have been allowed to do are two very different matters altogether...Once David Cameron started the clock ticking back in 2015 and the subsequent result in 2016 there was no turning back.Theresa May and Brexit would have been over had she said we won't be leaving until 2020....brexiteers from all sides would have seen it as a remainer ploy to keep us in the union.

I do undestand where you are coming from Barney and had she had the mandate to do so your suggestions would probably have been the better way forward but time waits for no one she had little option but to set a date sooner rather than 4 years latter.

Theresa has made mistakes, the biggest of which was being badly advised in calling a GE..... Leaders do indeed lead Barney but leading with her hands tied was always going to make Brexit a catalogue of compromises, compromises which have done nothing to make her job any easier, indeed many would argue she has achieved the imposible in getting Brexit to where we are now, especially considering what she has been up against from both sides of the channel..... strong leadership comes from those who deliver what they promise and to date no one in my opinion can say that she hasn't tried to keep that promise.

[Manoverboard]

I thought you were against freedom of movement?

I understood that it was a software solution to the control of goods rather than people.

ps … for the record I am not against ' freedom of movement ' providing we ( the UK ) dictate the terms of that movement.

I assume you mean people coming into the UK.

Freedom of movement works both ways. We can't dictate the terms on which UK citizens reside and work in the EU - I can't see them going for that

Unless all parties are in agreement and are all treated exactly the same, it's not freedom of movement.

Indeed so …. I was explaining to Jack my thoughts on movement of people coming into the UK. The EU wouldn't allow what I wanted so I voted to Leave.

[Jack Staff]

Indeed so …. I was explaining to Jack my thoughts on movement of people coming into the UK. The EU wouldn't allow what I wanted so I voted to Leave.

I was explaining to Manoverboard that Swedish software won't work in this situation.

[barney]

I don't agree with Barney's last bit...., in fact l don't agree with his first bit either.

What Barney would have done and what the UK government would have been allowed to do are two very different matters altogether...Once David Cameron started the clock ticking back in 2015 and the subsequent result in 2016 there was no turning back.Theresa May and Brexit would have been over had she said we won't be leaving until 2020....brexiteers from all sides would have seen it as a remainer ploy to keep us in the union.

I do undestand where you are coming from Barney and had she had the mandate to do so your suggestions would probably have been the better way forward but time waits for no one she had little option but to set a date sooner rather than 4 years latter.

Theresa has made mistakes, the biggest of which was being badly advised in calling a GE..... Leaders do indeed lead Barney but leading with her hands tied was always going to make Brexit a catalogue of compromises, compromises which have done nothing to make her job any easier, indeed many would argue she has achieved the imposible in getting Brexit to where we are now, especially considering what she has been up against from both sides of the channel..... strong leadership comes from those who deliver what they promise and to date no one in my opinion can say that she hasn't tried to keep that promise.

I think therein lies the problem.
"What we are allowed to do" ?

There is no one stopping us from doing exactly what we want, but we have to accept that there are consequences to our actions.

The EU dictated the terms of the WA and trade deal and we meekly went along with it because that is what the EU "allowed us to do".
We must change this mind set.

I'll happily concede that May has been up against it and the constant interference from those try to thwart the process has been a massive hinderance.
With the likes of Blair having meetings with Tusk and telling him that a tough EU stance will make the UK change it's mind haven't helped.
The EU leaders are clearly now furious because what the Remainers told them would happen, hasn't.

Extract from the Express
"EU insiders tell me that Tusk allowed himself to become convinced Brexit was going to be overturned after a plan was constructed between senior Brussels figures and British pro-Remain politicians, led by Blair, that seemed to be working perfectly.
Part of the plan involved Brussels playing hardball in negotiations, so that the deal Theresa May was able to put in front of MPs was profoundly unappetising.
That advice to Brussels was relayed by a stream of pro-Remain visitors from the heart of the British establishment."

They didn't bank on the UK standing firm and have realised, too late, that it is either negotiate properly or they will also have to face the consequences.

https://www.politico.eu/article/study-h ... rman-jobs/

So, one minute we are being told that nobody in Europe is even interested in Brexit and they are hardly discussing it.
Then, the next minute, the reality of the situation is driven home.

The EU should be falling over itself to complete a trade deal with it's biggest and most influential customer, not belittling us for political traction.
The deal they have just agreed with Japan pales into insignificance compared to the one they can get with the UK

[Jack Staff]

The deal they have just agreed with Japan pales into insignificance compared to the one they can get with the UK

Please clarify this statement.

[barney]

The deal they have just agreed with Japan pales into insignificance compared to the one they can get with the UK

Please clarify this statement.

To the very best of my knowledge, The EU countries do not have a 85 billion trade deficit with Japan.
The deal with japan is obviously good for EU exporting countries but is nowhwre near what we spend annually.

[Jack Staff]

The deal they have just agreed with Japan pales into insignificance compared to the one they can get with the UK

Please clarify this statement.

To the very best of my knowledge, The EU countries do not have a 85 billion trade deficit with Japan.
The deal with japan is obviously good for EU exporting countries but is nowhwre near what we spend annually.

Ok, but we have (had) a deal and the Japanese have not (until now).
Because they have twice our population and are richer than us, I don't think the significance of this deal can be overlooked.

[Jack Staff]

The EU, killing our industries....
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190211/austra ... arine-deal?

Not

[towny44]

The EU, killing our industries....
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190211/austra ... arine-deal?

Not

Forgive me if I read the article wrongly but these submarines, although of French design, will be built in Australia, now how is that preserving EU industries?

[Jack Staff]

Why aren't they built in Australia by BAE? That €30 billion would go a long way in it's UK factories.

[towny44]

Why aren't they built in Australia by BAE? That €30 billion would go a long way in it's UK factories.

That's competition Jack, and by the reading of the article the French had the best option available.

[Jack Staff]

Yes, the French do have a better option.

[Manoverboard]

Indeed so …. I was explaining to Jack my thoughts on movement of people coming into the UK. The EU wouldn't allow what I wanted so I voted to Leave.

I was explaining to Manoverboard that Swedish software won't work in this situation.

Yes … but you didn't explain why it wouldn't work once it was modified

[Jack Staff]

Yes … but you didn't explain why it wouldn't work once it was modified

Because Sweden has a 'Hard' border with Norway for trucks. So doesn't help there.
Norway is in Schengen and has FOM. So no need for passport checks.

Just can't see how any software, Swedish or otherwise, has much bearing on the N. Irish Border.

[Jack Staff]

We had the ferry company that copied it's T&C's from a fast food site.

Not to be out done Farage’s new Brexit party has copied it's T&C's from a kids nursery in Lowestoft. Seems apt.

You can play spot the difference.....
http://www.thebrexitparty.org/privacy-policy
http://www.kidszonelowestoft.co.uk/privacy-policy

[barney]

Calm down Jack !
That's just an internet template that both lots have used.
It's not a million miles away from my own, which, by the way, we set up with an internet template.

There is no need to re-invent the wheel every time you do something.
We unashamedly nick other people's ideas all the time, when marketing.

[Manoverboard]

Yes … but you didn't explain why it wouldn't work once it was modified

Because Sweden has a 'Hard' border with Norway for trucks. So doesn't help there.
Norway is in Schengen and has FOM. So no need for passport checks.

Just can't see how any software, Swedish or otherwise, has much bearing on the N. Irish Border.

That's because you're not a software specialist … just saying

[Jack Staff]

That's because you're not a software specialist … just saying

How do you know?