Brexit

[towny44]

Watching Politics Live today I noted that Margaret Hodge was quoting Jack and Gill's much repeated view that no one voted in the referendum to be poorer.
As I have repeatedly commented we surely must have, since the entire remain argument was based on their view that leaving the EU would have a negative economic impact on the UK.

[Jack Staff]

But what you failed to quote was Churchill's other comment that he did not believe the UK should be part of a united states of Europe.

That is from an earlier essay and as they say actions speak louder than words.....

"With this plea for a United States of Europe, Churchill was one of the first to advocate European integration to prevent the atrocities of two world wars from ever happening again, calling for the creation of a Council of Europe as a first step. In 1948, in The Hague, 800 delegates from all European countries met, with Churchill as honorary president, at a grand Congress of Europe.This led to the creation of the Council of Europe on 5 May 1949, the first meeting of which was attended by Churchill himself. His call to action can be seen as propelling further integration as later agreed upon during the Messina Conference in 1955, which led to the Treaty of Rome two years later. It was also Churchill who would first moot the idea of a ‘European army’ designed to protect the continent and provide European diplomacy with some muscle. Furthermore, the European Court of Human Rights was created in 1959 — a decade after Churchill first championed the idea. "

[Jack Staff]

Watching Politics Live today I noted that Margaret Hodge was quoting Jack and Gill's much repeated view that no one voted in the referendum to be poorer.
As I have repeatedly commented we surely must have, since the entire remain argument was based on their view that leaving the EU would have a negative economic impact on the UK.

But I thought you didn't believe a word of that, calling it "Project Fear".

[towny44]

Watching Politics Live today I noted that Margaret Hodge was quoting Jack and Gill's much repeated view that no one voted in the referendum to be poorer.
As I have repeatedly commented we surely must have, since the entire remain argument was based on their view that leaving the EU would have a negative economic impact on the UK.

But I thought you didn't believe a word of that, calling it "Project Fear".

There you go again Jack putting your own spin on everything, I have consistently said that while I did not think the outcome would be anywhere near as bad as project fear predicted, I accepted that there may be some short term negative impact.

[towny44]

But what you failed to quote was Churchill's other comment that he did not believe the UK should be part of a united states of Europe.

That is from an earlier essay and as they say actions speak louder than words.....

"With this plea for a United States of Europe, Churchill was one of the first to advocate European integration to prevent the atrocities of two world wars from ever happening again, calling for the creation of a Council of Europe as a first step. In 1948, in The Hague, 800 delegates from all European countries met, with Churchill as honorary president, at a grand Congress of Europe.This led to the creation of the Council of Europe on 5 May 1949, the first meeting of which was attended by Churchill himself. His call to action can be seen as propelling further integration as later agreed upon during the Messina Conference in 1955, which led to the Treaty of Rome two years later. It was also Churchill who would first moot the idea of a ‘European army’ designed to protect the continent and provide European diplomacy with some muscle. Furthermore, the European Court of Human Rights was created in 1959 — a decade after Churchill first championed the idea. "

Yet again Jack only quoting part of the story, the attached gives a more accurate assessment of Chuchills views on Europe and the UK role in it.

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-712 ... 65ce54b926

[Jack Staff]

Yet again Jack only quoting part of the story, the attached gives a more accurate assessment of Chuchills views on Europe and the UK role in it.

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-712 ... 65ce54b926

What do you want me to do? Quote the whole of history? Or perhaps just the bits that agree with you?

Churchill was (on the whole) pro Europe. That's it. We can argue specific points if you wish.

[towny44]

Yet again Jack only quoting part of the story, the attached gives a more accurate assessment of Chuchills views on Europe and the UK role in it.

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-712 ... 65ce54b926

What do you want me to do? Quote the whole of history? Or perhaps just the bits that agree with you?

Churchill was (on the whole) pro Europe. That's it. We can argue specific points if you wish.

Pro Europe but without the UK as a member of any new federal organisation, which when you only quote selective comments suggesting the opposite is tantamount to lying.

[Jack Staff]

Yet again Jack only quoting part of the story, the attached gives a more accurate assessment of Chuchills views on Europe and the UK role in it.

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-712 ... 65ce54b926

What do you want me to do? Quote the whole of history? Or perhaps just the bits that agree with you?

Churchill was (on the whole) pro Europe. That's it. We can argue specific points if you wish.

Pro Europe but without the UK as a member of any new federal organisation, which when you only quote selective comments suggesting the opposite is tantamount to lying.

Are you accusing me of lying?

[towny44]

What do you want me to do? Quote the whole of history? Or perhaps just the bits that agree with you?

Churchill was (on the whole) pro Europe. That's it. We can argue specific points if you wish.

Pro Europe but without the UK as a member of any new federal organisation, which when you only quote selective comments suggesting the opposite is tantamount to lying.

Are you accusing me of lying?

Only you can answer that Jack, did you deliberately intend the reader to believe that Churchill felt the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU?

[Manoverboard]

…. and would he have welcomed with open arms the Albanians, Turks and even the Egyptians ?

[Jack Staff]

Pro Europe but without the UK as a member of any new federal organisation, which when you only quote selective comments suggesting the opposite is tantamount to lying.

Are you accusing me of lying?

Only you can answer that Jack, did you deliberately intend the reader to believe that Churchill felt the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU?

Yes, I do think that Churchill felt that "the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU".

He approved of our 1961 application to join a Community where the first sentence of its founding Treaty made clear that its over-arching political aim - “ever-closer union amongst the peoples of Europe” - went far wider than merely a “Common Market”.

How does that make me a liar?

[Ray B]

I give up, roll on the 29th March and we can talk about something else … like, at last we have finally left the EU

I can feel an extension in the air.

[towny44]

Are you accusing me of lying?

Only you can answer that Jack, did you deliberately intend the reader to believe that Churchill felt the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU?

Yes, I do think that Churchill felt that "the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU".

He approved of our 1961 application to join a Community where the first sentence of its founding Treaty made clear that its over-arching political aim - “ever-closer union amongst the peoples of Europe” - went far wider than merely a “Common Market”.

How does that make me a liar?

Did you read and understand the article I provided the link for? Because my reading of that article suggests that Churchill thought the EU was a good idea for others but definitely not for the UK, and that has always been my understanding.

[Jack Staff]

Only you can answer that Jack, did you deliberately intend the reader to believe that Churchill felt the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU?

Yes, I do think that Churchill felt that "the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU".

He approved of our 1961 application to join a Community where the first sentence of its founding Treaty made clear that its over-arching political aim - “ever-closer union amongst the peoples of Europe” - went far wider than merely a “Common Market”.

How does that make me a liar?

Did you read and understand the article I provided the link for? Because my reading of that article suggests that Churchill thought the EU was a good idea for others but definitely not for the UK, and that has always been my understanding.

Yes I read the article, I have read many.
However, your understanding of a situation does not give you the right to imply I am a liar.

[barney]

Nobody can really know what people thought in the past about our current situation.
In my opinion, had we not joined 'the common market' when we did, then we would have steered miles clear of what it has morphed in to.

No serious, wealthy European country would ever join the EU, as we know it.

The proof will be in the pudding when a certain political party stands on a manifesto of re-joining the EU at the next general election.

Then we will see the UK's appetite for the EU.

[towny44]

Yes, I do think that Churchill felt that "the UK should be a founding member of what we know now as the EU".

He approved of our 1961 application to join a Community where the first sentence of its founding Treaty made clear that its over-arching political aim - “ever-closer union amongst the peoples of Europe” - went far wider than merely a “Common Market”.

How does that make me a liar?

Did you read and understand the article I provided the link for? Because my reading of that article suggests that Churchill thought the EU was a good idea for others but definitely not for the UK, and that has always been my understanding.

Yes I read the article, I have read many.
However, your understanding of a situation does not give you the right to imply I am a liar.

Jack, can I suggest you put that argument to a vote and see what others on the forum think.

[Jack Staff]

Did you read and understand the article I provided the link for? Because my reading of that article suggests that Churchill thought the EU was a good idea for others but definitely not for the UK, and that has always been my understanding.

Yes I read the article, I have read many.
However, your understanding of a situation does not give you the right to imply I am a liar.

Jack, can I suggest you put that argument to a vote and see what others on the forum think.

What? That your kind of behaviour is acceptable? I don't mean on this forum, I mean that is not how 'gentlemen' converse.

[Onelife]

I'm not bothered to read up on what Churchill did or didn't think about Europe but what l can tell you is that he wouldn't have signed up to being controlled by it.

[barney]

I'm not bothered to read up on what Churchill did or didn't think about Europe but what l can tell you is that he wouldn't have signed up to being controlled by it.

Ain't that the truth

[Gill W]

Did you read and understand the article I provided the link for? Because my reading of that article suggests that Churchill thought the EU was a good idea for others but definitely not for the UK, and that has always been my understanding.

Yes I read the article, I have read many.
However, your understanding of a situation does not give you the right to imply I am a liar.

Jack, can I suggest you put that argument to a vote and see what others on the forum think.

How would you feel if someone implied you were a liar?

[Onelife]

I'm not bothered to read up on what Churchill did or didn't think about Europe but what l can tell you is that he wouldn't have signed up to being controlled by it.

Ain't that the truth

Well it gets two fingers from me Barney

[Onelife]

Yes I read the article, I have read many.
However, your understanding of a situation does not give you the right to imply I am a liar.

Jack, can I suggest you put that argument to a vote and see what others on the forum think.

How would you feel if someone implied you were a liar?

But when you select passages of text in an attempt mislead the reader are you not being evasive with the truth?

That was my interpretation of what towny was implying ...and not that my 'good mate Jack' was a 'liar' Per se

[Jack Staff]

But when you select passages of text in an attempt mislead the reader are you not being evasive with the truth?

That was my interpretation of what towny was implying ...and not that my 'good mate Jack' was a 'liar' Per se

I can not post the entire works of Churchill in a post.
Towny is welcome to post counter "select passages of text", as would be the norm in conversation.
But he is unable and resorts to the gutter with...

... when you only quote selective comments suggesting the opposite is tantamount to lying.

Which is implying I'm a liar.

[Onelife]

Hi Jack,

This is why l tend to steer clear of posting links/part of because there is always an opposing link that contradicts what you have posted. A quick glance this morning proves this as there are several that have a different interpretation of what Churchills vision of Europe was.


Keith

[Manoverboard]

Liar, liar knickers on fire ... ....

Give it a rest and grow up or there will be a cull of the offending posts any time soon.