Current Affairs

[oldbluefox]

I believe John Major does a good lecture on sleaze and fidelity.
I think you are absolutely right about Boris. He was there to get a job done and having achieved that the Tories will bring in a heavyweight before the next election. Had there been a stronger opposition it would have been sooner rather than later.

[Kendhni]

If only he had have delivered what he promised he would deliver instead of the half-baked botch up that he has been furiously back pedalling from ever since.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I believe John Major does a good lecture on sleaze and fidelity.

....or so Edwina Curry told me....

[Mervyn and Trish]

A serious and unloaded question for those on here who dislike, or appear to dislike, everything Bojo does. What do you see or wish for as the alternative?

The fact I don't get drawn into and agree with every attack doesn't mean I'm a slavish supporter. I know he has faults. In fact I'm a genuine floating voter who has voted for every major party at some time.

The reason I get accused of #whataboutery is I depair of the lack of credible opposition, and that is essential to our form of democracy.

Under our present system the minor parties haven't a hope in hell at the next election, even if they conducted a brilliant campaign.

So that leaves two possibilities. The first is a Labour win. That is the source of my #whataboutery. In my view Sir Hindsight is clueless. When he attacks Tory sleaze all of us can remember copious examples of Labour sleaze. So hypocrisy as well as hindsight.

And at other times all he does in oppose for opposition's sake. The thing he said he wouldn't do. So I haven't the remotest idea what he stands for or what his government might look like. In my view he's unelectable.

The second alternative is the Tories replace Bojo with a more widely popular leader. Firstly I don't think they have such a person. Secondly why would they do that if there's no threat. And while Labour is not credible there isn't.

At least one of the Bojo detractors has openly declared they are not a Labour supporter. Others I don't know. So what do you all hope for at the next election?

[Onelife]

Like you Sir Merv I have voted for all the main parties at one time or another but predominantly conservative. This is not to say my values are represented by this party, however, in the absence of a party that has the vision and aptitude to fulfil my hope of a fairer society I feel the best alternative is to vote for a party that I believe keeps our country economically stable.

Both of the main parties need new leaders and have given my preference for the next Con Party leader…as for the labour party I would be delighted if they could find someone of the calibre of David Miliband as their next leader.

Under these circumstances I would most definitely become a “labour lovie”….see what I did there Foxy

[Kendhni]

I will do what I always do, judge on performance and adherence to what they said they would do. On both accounts the current government is seriously lacking and has shown itself to be institutionally corrupt and incompetent. Unfortunately while others act as apologists and are willing to accept low standards from their tribal leadership they will get the government they deserve.

[towny44]

I will do what I always do, judge on performance and adherence to what they said they would do. On both accounts the current government is seriously lacking and has shown itself to be institutionally corrupt and incompetent. Unfortunately while others act as apologists and are willing to accept low standards from their tribal leadership they will get the government they deserve.

You must have been very disappointed over the years, since very few govts have lived up to their promises in their manifestos.
Personally I assume a manifesto is a wish list of what govets would like to do with an endless supply of tax revenues, and no economic disturbances to throw their budgeting off course.
However as a realist I recognise this never happens, as a a result I am never disappointed.

[Gill W]

As there is currently no general election in the offing, to my mind its not worth thinking about PMs from other parties. If Johnson is deposed, then the next PM will come from the Conservative Party. As many of the senior Tories that I regarded as decent people are no longer MPs, I can’t say I fancy any of the alternatives very much.

[Kendhni]

As there is currently no general election in the offing, to my mind its not worth thinking about PMs from other parties.

Absolutely spot on ... the only question is whether or not we, as a population, are willing to accept the levels of corruption, nepotism and dis information that this government is cowering behind. Personally I think the people of the UK deserve much better but pure tribalism means they are willing to throw away their standards and integrity for 'their man'.

Unfortunately there is too much dependence on the strawman, or argumentum ad ignorantiam, or, as you call it 'whataboutery' ... when you cannot counter against the points being made, it is easier to make something ridiculous up. Sadly there are far too many whose only defence is trying to introduce irrelevant factors such as 'someone else would have been worse' which is absolutely, totally and utterly worthless in any discussion.

[towny44]

Ken, you are getting far too het up over this perceived corruption issue. Granted Boris's attempt to use the Patterson issue to water down the commons ethics process, possibly to protect himself from further investigation about his decorating bill, was a bit too much. But really it was no more than trying the rig the playground voting for team games, so that you get the best players. Boris will always try boyish pranks, because that is just how he is, but to categorise him as an evil despot is a bridge too far, and claiming that his defenders are ridiculous for comparing other parties is unworthy of you.

[Kendhni]

Why would you think I am het up? I am actually finding this quite funny. The old 'Well Fred would have been worse?' argument when there can never possibly be any evidence for or against it is a logical fallacy literally at the same level of discussion as 'Mickey mouse would have been better than the current clown'. I always find that level of argument funny!

So let us break down your post

Ken, you are getting far too het up perceived inaccuracy
over this perceived corruption issue. perceived ? hmmm!
Granted Boris's attempt to use the Patterson issue to water down the commons ethics process, possibly to protect himself from further investigation about his decorating bill, was a bit too much. But really it was no more than trying the rig the playground voting for team games, so that you get the best players. if that is the level of integrity and competence that you consider is acceptable from those that represent you then 'fill yer boots'
Boris will always try boyish pranks, because that is just how he is so he IS a clown then
but to categorise him as an evil despot is a bridge too far, you are the first person I have heard use that connection, why do you think you chose to compare him to an 'evil despot'? You could be right since those who have worked closest to him have occasionally made similar sorts of claims
and claiming that his defenders are ridiculous for comparing other parties is unworthy of you. That is OK then, I didn't claim his defenders are ridiculous, I claimed that the strawman argument used to justify his incompetence is ridiculous

[Onelife]

As there is currently no general election in the offing, to my mind its not worth thinking about PMs from other parties. If Johnson is deposed, then the next PM will come from the Conservative Party. As many of the senior Tories that I regarded as decent people are no longer MPs, I can’t say I fancy any of the alternatives very much.

I disagree on that one Gill…. With the next election just over two years away I would have thought now would be the right time for a new prospective Labour leader to make an appearance, especially considering the motley bunch that are presently lining themselves for the job (Lisa Nandy being the exception)

The face of the Labour needs a transfusion of new blood if it is ever going to be seen as a healthy option for the voting public. now, I would suggest is the right time to find a specialist who can perform this delicate operation.

[Kendhni]

Do they not first have to try to take back that middle ground and determine what their USP is. Then they can determine who it is that is best to drive that message into an election.

[Onelife]

Do they not first have to try to take back that middle ground and determine what their USP is. Then they can determine who it is that is best to drive that message into an election.

I certainly think they need to find the middle ground again but in doing so they need to demonstrate they can be fiscally competent, something the Labour party rarely seem to get right.
Whereas the Conservative party are generally fiscally competent but always struggle with getting the balance of equality right.

What is clear is that both parties need new leaders now!

[Kendhni]

I certainly think they need to find the middle ground again but in doing so they need to demonstrate they can be fiscally competent, something the Labour party rarely seem to get right.
Whereas the Conservative party are generally fiscally competent but always struggle with getting the balance of equality right.

Up until a few years back I would have probably agreed with you. I know numbers can be sliced-and-diced in 101 different ways but it appears that there is no winner on who handles the economy better. Many reports I have read have concluded that the difference is statistically insignificant.

What is clear is that both parties need new leaders now!

I wouldn't limit that to just the big 2

[towny44]

Up until a few years back I would have probably agreed with you. I know numbers can be sliced-and-diced in 101 different ways but it appears that there is no winner on who handles the economy better. Many reports I have read have concluded that the difference is statistically insignificant.

What is clear is that both parties need new leaders now!

I wouldn't limit that to just the big 2

I would imagine it's difficult to make a modern comparison between the parties, the last Labour govt of Blair and Brown was more Tory light left than Labour. If the comparison is against manifesto's, then again that's impossible to judge since the losing party's manifestos are never tested in the real world, and we know the govt has to be pragmatic about following its manifesto if the economic situation changes.
But Labour remain the only party to boast that there was no money remaining as they left office.

[Kendhni]

I think the Tory government of the last 10 years is really going to screw the historical Tory figures on this. In 10 years they have taken the National Debt from about £1trillion to about £2.25 trillion and rising. Even allowing for about £300-400bn to cover COVID that is still a horrendous amount of borrowing during a period of make believe austerity. It appears that previous magic money trees were mere saplings compared to the one Johnson has been shaking.

But Labour remain the only party to boast that there was no money remaining as they left office.

Given media and public reaction to that comment I think I must be the only one that got the joke. I wonder if the Tories will be as honest when they leave office? They could say something like 'We made it worse, your go!"


Part of the problem that makes it difficult for comparison is fiscal drag. Any good/bad at the start of a new government (maybe 2-3 years) can/should really be attributed to policies put in place by the previous government while any good/bad at the end of a government can be claimed as all their own work. By 'government' here, I mean actual change of government not just change of leadership.

I am hoping they can turn this around because we should be ashamed of ourselves if we expect to pile this debt onto the next generation (and the next generation may refuse to take on the debt ... I remember posting about this many years ago on the old P&O board). One big stumbling block though is Johnson himself simply because he is known for avoiding anything that might make him unpopular ... will he do the right thing and put country before himself ... we wait and see!

[Onelife]

Good on you Michael Gove, its about time someone spoke out about this fiasco.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59216211

[towny44]

Good on you Michael Gove, its about time someone spoke out about this fiasco.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59216211

Boris has said the same, but he wants the building contractors to pay the bill, not the taxpayer.

[david63]

he wants the building contractors to pay the bill

Seems fair enough to me - they were, for whatever reason, the ones that got it wrong. Taxpayer should only get involved as a last resort.

There is too much these days of expecting the Government/taxpayer picking up the bills for other people's incompetence.

[Stephen]

Good on you Michael Gove, its about time someone spoke out about this fiasco.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59216211

Terrible situation for the young lady in the video clip. I felt really sorry for her.

[Ray B]

How can someone on limited funds sustain the on going fees in these towers or buildings with dangerous cladding. For most without help it could bankrupt them, a scandalous situation to be in while the developers turn their backs on what they created.

[Onelife]

Good on you Michael Gove, its about time someone spoke out about this fiasco.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59216211

Terrible situation for the young lady in the video clip. I felt really sorry for her.

As did I Stephen and the sad thing is that there are hundreds like her in the same position.

I actually think the cost should come out of the public purse and then let the government pursue those responsible through the courts.

[Manoverboard]

Have chums who's daughter lives in a low level block of apartments in London, many could comfortably afford to replace it but they won't because they are waiting for somebody else to bail them out. Even if the daughter were to replace hers she would still be unable to sell the property and that would remain the situation until all the cladding in the entire block had been replaced.

Meanwhile she cannot sell up to move and get married elsewhere.

[towny44]

Good on you Michael Gove, its about time someone spoke out about this fiasco.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59216211

Terrible situation for the young lady in the video clip. I felt really sorry for her.

As did I Stephen and the sad thing is that there are hundreds like her in the same position.

I actually think the cost should come out of the public purse and then let the government pursue those responsible through the courts.

You're being overly generous with the public taxation there Keith, far too liberal for my liking.