Current Affairs

[Onelife]

Might be worth putting a few bob on it OL. Better chances on this than the donkey walloping.

Tell me about its Foxy I’ve been visiting the food bank again this past couple of weeks…. let’s hope things pick up before Cheltenham...less than 6 weeks and counting

[Mervyn and Trish]

But the good news is we're out. And as a third party country we'll continue negotiating future deals with the EU just as any other third party country does. And when people like Macron get the idea it's a two way negotiation and stops trying to punish us to save his own neck it'll be easier. Actually on reflection his shelf life may be shorter than Boris's.

[Kendhni]

Theresa May, basically a remainer, tried to cobble together a deal which would satisfy everybody but basically it ended up satisfying nobody.
She conceded ground to the EU who clearly saw she was weak and could be manipulated and as a consequence she came up with a withdrawal agreement which could not work.
Unfortunately when Boris took over he was left with a dog's dinner of a document, facing an EU which were standing by the agreements made with TM and ultimately a bit of a fudge in order to get it through parliament. Given a clean slate instead of TM constantly kicking the tin down the road I believe we would have had a very different Brexit with fewer concessions to the EU. Better or worse we will never know.

That is one interpretation ... but it barely reflects reality.
TM put key brexiteer figures in place to drive the negotiations, they were the ones that failed to work out the deal and then chose to run-for-the-hills. TM was strong enough to stick by her guns and not sell out on her red lines.

Johnson then came in, appointed a 100% brexit cabinet, and completed the negotiations. It was Johnson that was weak and within a short period he accepted what was on the table, before kowtowing and capitulating on the last few outstanding elements (with no real concessions in return) ... I believe he knew he had actually made the deal worse which is why he totally denied parliament the opportunity to carry out any due diligence on the deal (in fact there are those that said Johnson did not even read it or understand it himself).

Interesting to hear you accept that the deal 'ended up satisfying nobody' ... I wouldn't have gone as far as saying 'nobody' (some wanted a brexit at any cost) but would suggest that the majority of the electorate were unhappy with the final deal negotiated by Johnson. Rees-Mogg, when asked about a secondary confirmatory vote to say “The problem with that is that would overturn the result that we’ve already had.” (remembering that Rees-Mogg had himself said many years ago that 'common sense' dictated that there should be a second confirmatory vote once the detail was known).

But we are were we are and I agree we will never know what would have happened in other circumstances. Clearly our negotiators were no match against the EU team. The UK (whoever you believe was responsible for it) negotiated a very mediocre deal for itself ... that is why I believe it is good to finally see some actual planning being done around the brexit that we (as a country) negotiated.

[Stephen]

An outline of the Sue Gray report.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60201752

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

[screwy]

And the general consensus is..?

[Stephen]

And the general consensus is..?

They abused their positions thinking they can do what they like and get away with it. Whether they will remains to be seen.

[Manoverboard]

Civil Service Heads of Department failed to get involved with the minutiae and overall objectives of Downing Street, tougher guidelines will need to be set by the PM and then be adhered to in the future.

End of ... is my guess.

[david63]

And the general consensus is..?

That the culture within the office leaves a lot to be desired and that the "management" is lacking - the management being that by the Civil Servants. So far there is not criticism of Boris - although that may come when the full report is available.

[oldbluefox]

Theresa May, basically a remainer, tried to cobble together a deal which would satisfy everybody but basically it ended up satisfying nobody.
She conceded ground to the EU who clearly saw she was weak and could be manipulated and as a consequence she came up with a withdrawal agreement which could not work.
Unfortunately when Boris took over he was left with a dog's dinner of a document, facing an EU which were standing by the agreements made with TM and ultimately a bit of a fudge in order to get it through parliament. Given a clean slate instead of TM constantly kicking the tin down the road I believe we would have had a very different Brexit with fewer concessions to the EU. Better or worse we will never know.

Interesting to hear you accept that the deal 'ended up satisfying nobody' ... I wouldn't have gone as far as saying 'nobody' (some wanted a brexit at any cost) but would suggest that the majority of the electorate were unhappy with the final deal negotiated by Johnson. Rees-Mogg, when asked about a secondary confirmatory vote to say “The problem with that is that would overturn the result that we’ve already had.” (remembering that Rees-Mogg had himself said many years ago that 'common sense' dictated that there should be a second confirmatory vote once the detail was known).

You seem to be misquoting me here but to put the record straight the deal which satisfied nobody was that of Theresa May.

Anyone who followed the debate would know that Brexit would not be achieved overnight. However when I see the shenanigans from across the channel I am thankful we are away from that bureaucratic Behemoth.

[oldbluefox]

Sounds like the whole setup at No10 needs a shake up.

[Mervyn and Trish]

It's a whitewash innit.

[screwy]

Thought up on the fly,over the weekend maybe.

[Gill W]

Fans of 'Wait for the outcome of Sue Gray's enquiry' can now enjoy the follow up, 'Wait for the conclusion of the police investigation'.

It seems that 12 of the 16 parties that Sue Gray looked into are now subject to a criminal investigation, including the ones in 10 Downing Street and the 10 Downing Street flat on 13th November 2020.

On 8th December 2021, Boris Johnson declared, at the dispatch box, that there hadn't been any parties on 13th November 2020. Yet, now police are investigating 2 parties on that day. In other words he misled parliament, and it's difficult to spin it as 'inadvertent'. In a different word, Johnson would have to resign because of this.

Johnson parrots 'Wait for the conclusion of the police investigation', but it would be stretching belief to think that he didn't know what was going on. But, he's managed to kick the can down the road for a bit longer.

[oldbluefox]

Am I correct in thinking that if you are being investigated by the police you are guilty? Asking for a friend.

[Kendhni]

Theresa May, basically a remainer, tried to cobble together a deal which would satisfy everybody but basically it ended up satisfying nobody.
She conceded ground to the EU who clearly saw she was weak and could be manipulated and as a consequence she came up with a withdrawal agreement which could not work.
Unfortunately when Boris took over he was left with a dog's dinner of a document, facing an EU which were standing by the agreements made with TM and ultimately a bit of a fudge in order to get it through parliament. Given a clean slate instead of TM constantly kicking the tin down the road I believe we would have had a very different Brexit with fewer concessions to the EU. Better or worse we will never know.

Interesting to hear you accept that the deal 'ended up satisfying nobody' ... I wouldn't have gone as far as saying 'nobody' (some wanted a brexit at any cost) but would suggest that the majority of the electorate were unhappy with the final deal negotiated by Johnson. Rees-Mogg, when asked about a secondary confirmatory vote to say “The problem with that is that would overturn the result that we’ve already had.” (remembering that Rees-Mogg had himself said many years ago that 'common sense' dictated that there should be a second confirmatory vote once the detail was known).

You seem to be misquoting me here but to put the record straight the deal which satisfied nobody was that of Theresa May.

Anyone who followed the debate would know that Brexit would not be achieved overnight. However when I see the shenanigans from across the channel I am thankful we are away from that bureaucratic Behemoth.

oops, I can see why you may have thought that - not my intention.
If 'nobody was happy with the deal' that TM created and the deal that Johnson pushed through parliament was basically exactly the same deal, with the only real change being that he surrendered TMs red lines , then it surely follows that 'nobody' could be happy with that deal either.

On the bureaucratic behemoth, you have to question which is more bureaucratic. The head of our civil service has suggested that they need 70,000 more people to take over the 150 (ish) departments that the EU used to look after ... yet the EU was able to look after those same departments for all member states using 32,000 staff working in the commission (about the same number as in our Home Office). I also believe that the EU employs some 60,000 in total which is about the same as the MOD in the UK.

[Kendhni]

Fans of 'Wait for the outcome of Sue Gray's enquiry' can now enjoy the follow up, 'Wait for the conclusion of the police investigation'.

When even the right wing media are making jokes about Cressida d**k protecting Johnson you have to question what is going on.

Best comment I have seen today is 'I wonder how many of BoJo's children have a mother called Cressida'

I know some people accept incredibly low standards when it comes to their political representatives, but to think this report, as published, has been allowed to draw any meaningful conclusions really is scraping the barrel. That does not surprise me (given Johnson's track record), but what appears to be a bit of "orchestration", using a police commissioner, took even me by surprise.

[Bensham33]

We'll after reading and hearing Sue Gray's watered down report one thing is plainly obvious Johnsin has to go. Even some of his own MP's are saying go. His apology means absolutely nothing. With so much going on at the moment ie cost of living increases, tax increases, Russia and more it's even more vital that Johnson isn't in office.

He won't go of course, not without a fight, that also is plainly obvious but we know that he couldn't care less about anyone else.

[Onelife]

There’ll be a lot of letter writing going on tonight one would imagine, with a new No 10 makeover to follow

[towny44]

And the general consensus is..?

They abused their positions thinking they can do what they like and get away with it. Whether they will remains to be seen.

I doubt that Downing Street was the only office where some sort of Xmas parties took place. I imagine most offsite partying was cancelled but unless things have changed dramatically in the last 20 years I am sure some drinks and maybe even music was enjoyed by staff, who could not work from home, in very many organisations.
Whilst I agree these were technically against covid rules, if they were not reported at the time, then they would not have had any detrimental influence on how others behaved. So despite Sir Hindsight and the media highlighting every single death and funeral where relatives were unable to say their respectful farewells, to emphasise, in their view just how wicked and selfish the govt were being.
I realise that I am in a fairly small minority in not being overly concerned with these govt misdemeanors over Xmas, and even with leaving parties. However if they led to some light relief for the staff during a stressful working period, then maybe it helped the govt staff to decide to move more rapidly to relax covid restrictions for the general public, which IMO is most definitely the correct way to go.

[Bensham33]

It's not the fact they had parties. It's the fact Johnson lied. Why do some think that that's okay, lying to the people and lying to Parliament.

[Onelife]

And the general consensus is..?

They abused their positions thinking they can do what they like and get away with it. Whether they will remains to be seen.

I doubt that Downing Street was the only office where some sort of Xmas parties took place. I imagine most offsite partying was cancelled but unless things have changed dramatically in the last 20 years I am sure some drinks and maybe even music was enjoyed by staff, who could not work from home, in very many organisations.
Whilst I agree these were technically against covid rules, if they were not reported at the time, then they would not have had any detrimental influence on how others behaved. So despite Sir Hindsight and the media highlighting every single death and funeral where relatives were unable to say their respectful farewells, to emphasise, in their view just how wicked and selfish the govt were being.
I realise that I am in a fairly small minority in not being overly concerned with these govt misdemeanors over Xmas, and even with leaving parties. However if they led to some light relief for the staff during a stressful working period, then maybe it helped the govt staff to decide to move more rapidly to relax covid restrictions for the general public, which IMO is most definitely the correct way to go.

I would imagine after that load of tripe your minority has just got a whole lot smaller

[Kendhni]

It's not the fact they had parties. It's the fact Johnson lied. Why do some think that that's okay, lying to the people and lying to Parliament.

That has always been the crux for me ... I would say the majority of people bent the rules when it suited them ... it is the continual lies and insincere apologies which are more about apologising for being caught, rather than genuine apologies for the actions and the lies. How many times can number 10 take the people for absolute fools. How many more chances do these people want before they actually take action?


BTW the thing that surprises me the most is that the civil services was even able to organise a party ... normally half of them are off sick, on duvet days or have a doctors/dentists/childminding/funeral appointments .. maybe they should actually try doing some actual work for a change.

[david63]

Having read the report the criticism is with the "leadership", so the question remains who is leading Downing Street? Whoever is PM at the time is only the figurehead who may, or may not, decide the policy but the leadership/management is being done by Civil Servants and if the PM's policy is against any rules/laws relevant at the time then they are the ones who are in the position to do something about it.

Until we have the final report, be that Sue Grays or the Met's, then none of us have any knowledge of who did what.

[Onelife]

I would say the majority of people bent the rules when it suited them

I consider myself to be one who pushes the boundaries but, on this occasion, I must be in the minority then because I can’t recall breaking any covid rules and I certainly didn’t have any drinks parties.

[Onelife]

Having read the report the criticism is with the "leadership", so the question remains who is leading Downing Street? Whoever is PM at the time is only the figurehead who may, or may not, decide the policy but the leadership/management is being done by Civil Servants and if the PM's policy is against any rules/laws relevant at the time then they are the ones who are in the position to do something about it.

Until we have the final report, be that Sue Grays or the Met's, then none of us have any knowledge of who did what.

Maybe so David but the figurehead had a choice as to whether or not he attended theses parties and chose to do so while telling us lot not too..