Current Affairs

[Kendhni]

Your figures are way out. The cost of the EU was less that trivial.

The cost of leaving however is disastrous.

Last time I looked the cost of membership was a nett £8-10bn per year, so far the estimated cost of brexit is estimated to be somewhere between £250-400bn (depending on whose number you believe) plus an expected £12-15bn per year ongoing.

[Kendhni]

"Brexit was being driven primarily by the wealthy for the benefit of the wealthy"
Great quote Ken. Thank you.
That's exactly how I saw the EU and had done for many years prior to the referendum which had been promised on election manifestos but never materialised. Of course the beneficiaries would vote to remain but the rest got little or nothing. Perhaps we would still be in the EU had the wealth and opportunities been shared around the country.

I agree that a referendum was promised. but the rules around it proved to be ludicrous. An advisory referendum was held, which is the legal position, however there were additional promises made that could be argued to have moved that legal position ... even Farage accepts the referendum was not binding when he said "I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”. The question is as a public do we really want to see that? That really would be a 'be careful what you wish for' moment.

I can see your point about distribution of wealth, but you cannot argue there was no distribution. One of the funniest interviews I saw was a chap who claimed his reason for voting out was was because the EU had done nothing for him or his area ... he was being interviewed infront of a huge sign saying how the EU had put millions into the regeneration of the area .. one of several coal mining areas that was regenerated using EU money.

Arguably the issue was local representatives claiming credit for projects that were actually funded by the EU, and then a political establishment that blamed the EU on things that were actually local matters and nothing to do with the EU.

[oldbluefox]

There was a distribution mainly to the larger cities but for many communities which had lost their manufacturing base and for many coastal towns there was little investment. Around these parts we got a glorified fish tank and a strip of tarmac so we could walk by the sea. Not all the EU's fault but comes back to the overall failure of successive governments to spread the wealth generated by our membership to deprived areas of the country. Hence we now have the Northern Powerhouse which is a bit of a joke really because they don't know how far the north extends. There will be a civil servant somewhere who thinks Leeds and Manchester are 'the North'.

[barney]

Every single penny that the Eu claimed it spent in the U.K. originated in the U.K. and then some.
If the U.K. had taken our contribution out of the foreign aid budget, then it would have been more appropriate.
The argument really came down to very basics.
If you were happy to hand over a large portion of sovereignty to become a satellite nation in a European superstate, then you would have voted remain.
The rest voted to leave.

[oldbluefox]

Public opinion was in favour of staying in the EU.

That's what Cameron believed but he never bothered to consult those outside his own well cushioned bubble. He arrogantly ignored vast tracts of the country who were divorced from the wealth some were enjoying and thought we were all content to continue paying into a pot we got nothing out of.
It was Farage who backed him into a position he couldn't get out of.

[Kendhni]

There was a distribution mainly to the larger cities but for many communities which had lost their manufacturing base and for many coastal towns there was little investment. Around these parts we got a glorified fish tank and a strip of tarmac so we could walk by the sea. Not all the EU's fault but comes back to the overall failure of successive governments to spread the wealth generated by our membership to deprived areas of the country.

There are 2 points there that I think should be considered. Firstly it is not necessarily the EUs fault as to where the money went, so I agree that successive governments may not have spread it around equally ... however I would guess that we also probably do not understand the reasons behind funding decisions .. anything from specifically targeted areas. to having a an MP representing you that just so happens to have some naughty snaps of the PM.

Second, do we really know what funding has come into each of our areas. I was surprised recently to find out that a large communal hall and facilities that is for use of locals was funded by the EU (it is always booked out) ... I had no idea (quite possibly because I have never needed to know or even been in it). I can also remember an interview on the radio a while back which was going down a sectarian divide route. One community had received significant funding while another group, on the other side of the divide, with similar goals had received nothing ... the answer became obvious when the reporter asked 'Did you apply for a grant?' ... sort of spoiled the story a bit ... indignant of Tunbridge Wells lost their reason for phoning in.

[barney]

Public opinion was in favour of staying in the EU.

That's what Cameron believed but he never bothered to consult those outside his own well cushioned bubble. He arrogantly ignored vast tracts of the country who were divorced from the wealth some were enjoying and thought we were all content to continue paying into a pot we got nothing out of.
It was Farage who backed him into a position he couldn't get out of.

Had the EU remained as the Common Market that the U.K. joined, nobody would have even considered leaving.
When they morphed into a legislative body, everything changed.
The day that the EU Parliament was formed was the day I understood exactly what was happening.
Numerous U.K. Prime Ministers agreed massive changes without permission of the electorate.
The first one who agreed to ask the people actually affected lost.
That says it all.
The EU may be a perfect institution for supplicant nations.
For the U.K., it’s a national humiliation having to ask for your own money back.
I chuckled when I read the comments about EU funding
It was our money in the first place.

[Kendhni]

Public opinion was in favour of staying in the EU.

That's what Cameron believed but he never bothered to consult those outside his own well cushioned bubble. He arrogantly ignored vast tracts of the country who were divorced from the wealth some were enjoying and thought we were all content to continue paying into a pot we got nothing out of.
It was Farage who backed him into a position he couldn't get out of.

I agree with you about Cameron but think there was more to it. While he managed to get concessions from the EU on 8 out of 10 items on his shopping list, the British media went into spin overdrive implying he had got nothing. The second thing was that Cameron misjudged the mood of the "make believe" austerity that people thought they were enduring, with some claiming that they would take the opportunity to give the government a 2 fingered gesture ... we will never know what way such people would have voted if they had have voted for the issue instead, or what impact that may have had on the result.

With COVID Johnson has received a fools pardon for the last couple of years, but this government has to start delivering, because if they don't then when COVID goes away their gaping holes will be exposed (so to speak). We also have to accept that, as a country, it is what was voted for, and stop blaming everybody else when things don't go our way ... you would tell a child off for using such silly excuses.

[oldbluefox]

Indeed I never understood the point of giving the EU money only to ask for it back again but they decided what it would be spent on. I must say our fish tank is very nice, just a pity our main roads are much the same as they were in the forties and our rail line keeps breaking. But we are grateful for the new rolling stock which is a big improvement and it's really kind of those with the new trains to pass their old ones on to us.

[oldbluefox]

I can assure you the austerity was far from "make believe". There are still areas of this country which have been left far behind. Sadly some have no Idea of just how depressed some areas are and how important regeneration is.

[david63]

Not sure why we are raking up Brexit again but as we are here is my two pennyworth.

I have said this before - in my opinion the leave vote won because of the indecisiveness of the labour party in general and Corbyn in particular (has he got the splinters out yet from sitting on the fence for so long?)

I believe that many Labour stalwarts saw the remain option as a Conservative policy and on principle voted the other way. Had Corbyn stood shoulder to shoulder with Cameron when he did his national tour to show the Labour voters that remain was also Labour policy then I suspect that the outcome would have different

[barney]

Like many on the left, Corbyn was never comfortable with the intentions of the EU.
He can spot a Ponzi Scheme when he sees one.

[Stephen]

Indeed I never understood the point of giving the EU money only to ask for it back again but they decided what it would be spent on. I must say our fish tank is very nice, just a pity our main roads are much the same as they were in the forties and our rail line keeps breaking. But we are grateful for the new rolling stock which is a big improvement and it's really kind of those with the new trains to pass their old ones on to us.

Ship all the old cr*p up North while us Southern softies have all the new stuff

[oldbluefox]

I was being tactful and didn't like to put it like that but yep, you're right!!! We're told we're getting new trains - new to us!!
Somebody said we can't have brand new trains because they won't go under the bridges!! How true I don't know but not so long ago we had the old diesels similar to what the heritage trainlines had.

[towny44]

So very sad that the people on the wrong side of the majority are still arguing the fact.
The only solution is to use the recognised democratic system and campaign to join the EU, as the people who lead the leave campaign did.
Democracy sucks when you lose, doesn’t it?
I find it amusing that those who are most often on the wrong side of public opinion automatically assume that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Some would call that arrogance, wouldn’t they.

Public opinion was in favour of staying in the EU.

How do you work that out QB?

[Mervyn and Trish]

So very sad that the people on the wrong side of the majority are still arguing the fact.
The only solution is to use the recognised democratic system and campaign to join the EU, as the people who lead the leave campaign did.
Democracy sucks when you lose, doesn’t it?
I find it amusing that those who are most often on the wrong side of public opinion automatically assume that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Some would call that arrogance, wouldn’t they.

Public opinion was in favour of staying in the EU.

Shame they couldn't be arsed to vote then. That's the only poll that counted.

[barney]

We’ll have a general election in a couple of years or possibly even sooner.
The join EU brigade have plenty of time to organise, pick candidates and stand for election.
UKIP did that and despite not winning seats, ultimately had enough influence to change things.
It’s the way this nation works, not trying to overturn democratic votes.

[oldbluefox]

Public opinion was in favour of staying in the EU.

How do you work that out QB?

I wish I'd asked that!!!

[Mervyn and Trish]

I read today that around 30% of people said they'd be less likely to follow Covid rules because of the alleged Downing Street party. They're either politically posturing or they're mad. It's like saying I'm going to play Russian Roulette because they did.

I'm betting most people on this forum have more sense.

[oldbluefox]

They live amongst us. No doubt most of those wouldn't follow the rules anyway, parties or not. I suppose it will then be Boris' fault when they end up in hospital on ventilators.

[Onelife]

My wife attended a coffee morning a couple of weeks back and one of our Bible preaching neighbours told my wife Covid was just a conspiracy…so I said to my wife. “Did you tell her she was a stupid cow” she replied “Yes’ under my breath”

Now you know why I don’t go to coffee mornings and don’t belong to any debating society’s.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I love your subtle approach.

[Onelife]

If it is true that 60 Conservative MPs are going to rebel against the latest Covid measures then they should be big enough to resign if it turns out that the Omicron variant overwhelms the NHS.

[Kendhni]

If it is true that 60 Conservative MPs are going to rebel against the latest Covid measures then they should be big enough to resign if it turns out that the Omicron variant overwhelms the NHS.

That would require 'integrity' which is in short supply within Conservatism at the minute.

[david63]

That would require 'integrity' which is in short supply within Conservatism at the minute

I suspect that over something like that then it would be in short supply in all parties at any time. MPs are not renowned for resigning en masse over a single issue